Hey guys. So, as the title states, I would like a hand picking out one of the relatively small Borg Warner turbos for my setup. I have chosen to go with one of these because I am getting a twin scroll t4 tubular log mani that my buddy had custom made for his bottom mount 35r setup for extremely cheap. I will be putting this on a pump gas 93 mild build gsr and would like to see the high 300whp with room to move to at least the mid to high 400s range. My initial choice was the s256 (5661 inducer/exducer) but it comes standard with a 1.22 hot side which I would imagine is much too large. My smallest option for an aftermarket housing on it while staying in my budget would be a 1.00 turbine I believe, which still sounds a little big. I think full-race offers it in a .83 for extra, but they already charge about $150 more for the standard configuration turbo than anywhere else. My other two options include an s251 (5161) with a .83 hot side or an s360 (6068) with a .91 hot side. I am concerned that the s251 will not reach my ultimate goals, as it is sized similarly to a gt28, but the s360 may be overkill. All three of these turbos are priced similarly, but if the turbine housing is to be changed, I am set on the s256 because I wouldn't waste the extra $150+ on either of the other 2 without any advice from someone with firsthand experience with these. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!

 

Sounds like the easiest fix is to find a T3 manifold rather than messing around with a T4 log on a 300whp setup.

My vote is for the S256 .70ar - i used to run one and loved it.

 

I could do that, but I do plan to go to a higher power range in the future and am looking to be closer to 400 than 300 bare minimum to start. I have a cast t3 log laying around, but this t4 is a very nice mani and I don't mind the room to grow. I am also only doing it because it is an extremely well priced upgrade over a cast log and a t3 super 60. Was your s256 a t3 housing? I have not been able to find anything reasonably priced in anything smaller than a 1.00 t4 housing. What was your setup and numbers out of curiosity?

Anyone have any idea what kind of power i could achieve with the .83 housing s251? It seems to be a lower hp turbo than I'm looking for on srt4s, ms3s, stis, etc. But from what I've seen, that's always been a different story on na to turbo cars vs. Factory turbo. I have not found any bseries using one of those.

 

Even if you're looking for 500whp in the future, you still don't need a T4 flanged manifold. Its going to make your turbo selection very difficult for this first setup - as long as you're prepared for days of lag, this will work.

Simple solution - T3 manifold, 50-57 trim, 720cc injectors, go...

I agree that the BW line is great but for your goals, its overkill - so is this manifold.

 

I would agree with you on that. $125 for a decent quality manifold is just so hard to pass up lol. These are definitely the smallest t4 turbos I could find aside from the tiny 46mm ones, which I'm not sure why are even offered in a t4 housing lol. I may stick with a t3 if I can find a good deal on a turbo, but I feel that I will need to spend some money upgrading from the crappy cast log that I have to achieve my goals anyway. On a side note, I found a place doing .83 hot side s256's for $867.90 shipped which is about $100 less than full-race before shipping

 

Get someone to weld a T3 Flange on there.

 

I'm still trying to picture a divided log manifold in my head... It isn't working.

 

I suppose I am using the term log manifold loosely because it is configured just like a log, but it is partitioned between where the runners meet the "log" portion of the manifold. So technically it isn't a true log manifold but looks like one externally. Sort of like this but it is stainless and uses dual wastegates http://www.agpturbo.com/srt-4-agp-ca...roll-manifold/

 

6 of one, 1/2 dozen of the other. You're fine as long as you use a small enough turbocharger that's going to fit it.

 

The t3 vs. T4 debate wasn't really what I was looking for and I don't see how a similar sized t3 turbo would have any difference vs. The equivalent with a t4 flange as was mentioned earlier, but I believe an s256 with the .83 t4 housing that I found would be an appropriate sized turbo the more I look into it. It may still be a little big on the hot side, but the compressor sounds to be about perfect for my goals. I haven't gotten any input on the s251, but seems a bit small and the s360 is simply way too big.. I don't mind a little later spool, I was just worried about the 1.00 hot side that was the smallest I had found when I first began this thread. I'm used to not seeing boost till 5500 in my
dsm anyway lol.

 

that wasn't my focus for my analogy. it was towards the log manifold, and whether or not your particular choice was "officially" a log manifold by popular definition or not. Not the t3 vs. T4 debate. You're going to find like many do later on here, that the T4 vs T3 issue is not just about "lag" , optimal "boost thresholds" and peak power. It also has to do with your choice and selection of turbocharger and its characteristics based upon its exhaust wheel. The A/R of the T4 is very important, but is just looking at one side of a square, when the whole cube has to be taken into consideration.

So, if you want to justify yourself with a T4 option, you'll find no one will stop you. but it's not just because there are other optimal choices for the characteristics you're looking for, its that you're not going to get a lot of debatable opinions for the two flange systems, because they generally will be found on turbochargers that have 2 completely different purposes.

That's why most of us are sitting twiddling our thumbs, seeing how your decision process was formulated and for the most part.... "letting life teach".

 

I realized what you meant as I pondered your post afterwards haha. I suppose I may be missing a point other than not needing a t4 frame for my purposes and that it is more than likely not an optimal choice. I have spent way too much time considering whether or not to bite the bullet on this and hope I don't regret my decision regardless of which way it goes lol. My purpose for this car is very loose. So I am not overly concerned as long as it gives me what I am looking for, which is a quality, budget upgrade over my old setup without making the powerband entirely useless. Unfortunately, it is obvious why I can't find anyone with a similar setup, but I was hoping I could fish up someone with some firsthand experience with at least something similar enough in size for me to get an idea of what I'm getting myself into haha. This brings me to a few questions I have for you, specifically, that I have come up with in my research. I read your post from ages ago comparing the s200 when it was new to the old t67. Which s200 was that? Same 56mm compressor and .76 t3 turbine as the SLS test post from back around the same time? Would that housing spool significantly faster than the .83 t4? Finally, would I be wrong in saying that the only notable difference I'd be looking at between the turbos, assuming you tested the same setup (unfortunately the website with their results is no longer there), would be the spool time? Perhaps my itr cam gsr head would alleviate that slightly over the stock ls head. I don't plan on revving high enough to see the differences up top between those housing a/r's I don't think.

 

^^ I've looked for that T67 vs S256 comparison and can't find it. That must've taken some deep web searches to find that old thing... SLS used to be local to me. I loved Nick's white GSR and eventually modeled my setup on the same thing.

S256 .70ar on 81.5mm GSR on SLS prototype, i had full boost (~17psi) by 4200rpm and was seeing positive pressure around 3-3300rpm. Its a fairly responsive turbo in T3 - i can't speak for the T4 variants

 

That is very impressive. That is way faster spool than I was even hoping for lol, but obviously that's a quite a bit smaller hot side. What kind of numbers did it make on the 17psi?
Here is the post. https://honda-tech.com/forced-induct...ou-so-1507774/ Seems much less responsive than yours, but that is why I was curious about the setup. Plus the stock ls head and 30psi may contribute to the later peak power, I'd imagine.

 

I might be mistaken on the exact boost rpm...i'll have to look for my old dyno graphs. Car made 385whp/285wtq on E85 at 16-17psi (had some boost creep). This setup was back in 2008 so its been a while

 

I'll split this up as quickly as I can here. Responses are in Green

It's time to "tighten up" that purpose. I understand that you want to use a turbocharger for a number of purposes and types of racing, but you have to realize ONE turbo can't do it all...A turbo can have one great characteristic, two characteristics that are pretty good, three characteristics that one looks for and is mediocre in all three areas, or four characteristics horribly.

Pick two that you're looking for within that spectrum and you'll be able to narrow it down quite a bit. But stick with your smaller T3 flange choice will all for MUCH greater options than with T4. I was recently working with someone who just had to have their T4 flange for their manifold flange options (for easier welding) and couldn't get the same characteristics he wanted from about 3 different companies, because no one who manufactures, use T4 and responsive in the same sentence or logic pattern

Yes, but they mainly stick to Garrett-Styled turbochargers because of the variety of turbine wheel and compressor wheel optional choices that are available.... especially for the cost.

So, you're not going to see a lot of experiences with the choices you're considering.

Oh god, do I wish we had the U.K's legislation of "right-to-forget". That was over 10 years ago, and from what I vaguely recall, it was a S256 pushed to over 40psi of boost pressure in order to do what it did against the T67's 20psi or so. I don't even remember the turbine housing used, because the test facility in Michigan that used it was given about 3 housings, only that it used a 76mm turbine housing, a little smaller than a T67. I don't remember at all which housing was used on the test. Either way, it was a graph that should have stayed internal for a laugh.

What I DID like about the test was that it could be done. What I DIDN'T like about the test was the way we tried to spin it as a marketing strategy when extended tip technology was first released in a cast wheel.., and the fact that no one in their right mind would see this as an efficient or effective comparison.

It's one of those mistakes I wish I could delete from so long ago, and therefore, please disregard it as much as possible when it comes to your decision choice

Yes, you would be considerably wrong . EVERYTHING between the two turbochargers were completely different, except for the test vehicle it was used on.

Again, please stop using this graph for any type of comparison analysis.. It no longer applies.

 

First off, I would like to thank you for the time you took out for these responses. I apologize for bringing up your dark past lol. I will disregard that post, but it seems like, all things considered, it did pretty well in the t3 frame. T67-like results aren't really what I'm shooting for anyway. I should have made myself more clear, but I meant the difference between whatever s256's you and SLS used in these tests and the s256 with the .83 t4.

 

No one ever used a .83 T4. Too large of an exhaust volute and turbine wheel for the smaller compressor wheel. A formula closer to be used for high torque, low speed, BIG displacement setups... Like a tractor or diesel truck.

 

In essence what everyone is saying, ditch the T4 manifold, as overall it doesn't actually fit in with your goals, something is only a "bargain" if its what you need for a really good price.

The S256 is going for pretty cheap at some vendors (but get it in T3 config), another good value alternative is a Precision 5431/5831.

 

I had already basically abandoned the idea of the t4 and was looking at goautoworks and bwr t3 manifolds as an upgrade over my log. I am in search of an hy35, but began looking at stc turbos and stumbled across the predator (~60lb/min), which happens to come in a .68ar t4 option w/74mm exhaust wheel. Is this something that should be considered? Or should I not look back?

 

I have a feeling TheShodan has an opinion on this....

Just looking at it plainly, a 60lb/min turbo is capable of roughly 600hp which is twice your goal. Now couple that to a T4 backside and again we're heading back to lag-city. I would absolutely run an STC turbo (and have) but again, i think you're way overshooting the mark here. I would look at The Hunter instead.

 

The ultimate goal is high 400s ~500max, which that is still more than capable of. It was just another idea lol. If I go with the t3 manifold ultimately, which is how it is looking at this point, I will most likely go with a silver surfer if I can't get my hands on a good hy35 because that will give me room to move and still be pretty responsive from what I've seen. If my goal was only 300, I would simply max out the super 60.

 

For the record, it is possible to change turbos for different setups. In the span of 4 years, i had a T3/T04e 57 trim, 60-1, STC GT3255b, and lastly an S256.

Silver Surfer would be a good all-around turbo for your goal, but then again, so would an S256. Now that you've conceded using T3, you have a world of options available to you.

 

Unfortunately, I don't have the money to do all that lol. That's why I would like to be one and done, but then again, I suppose making closer to optimal turbo choice to begin with is the first step towards that haha. The s256 in a t3 housing is quite a bit more expensive, and I can't find any t3 housings to buy separately and just slap on there. The stc turbos sound like they may fit the bill quite well though. The predator was just a last ditch idea that I stumbled upon. Thanks for everyone's responses!

 

I actually had a HY35 in my reply, but they can difficult to find in the right configuration (no wastegate) - so didn't want to steer you down a difficult path. But T3 is the way to go for your intended goals, irrespective of brand.

The STC Silver Surfer gets rave reviews from all those that have used it, even the Hunter T04B might suit your goals if you not planning on more than 450whp.