HybridKOOP

I've heard alot of people say that the H22A engine is not good for boost applications.

WHY?

How are the sleeves on this motor? With forged pistons and rods, will it holdup like a B-series engine with the same pistons and rods? How is sleeving done on the H-series engines? Same as B?

I ask because I'm considering picking up a late model Prelude for a street project. The cars are flat out nice to drive, and I would love to have over 400hp on tap if I do go that route.

One last question while I'm at it... would any of you H22 guys recommend a T4-based turbine? I'm thinking it'd be fine considering more displacement than a B-series motor. I'm thinking like, a T4/60-1 .63 with Crower/JE and about 18-20 psi on C16.

Any inputs appreciated guys, thanks.

- Louis

EDIT: Grammatical.


[Modified by HybridKOOP, 8:41 PM 10/23/2002]

clm_Sol

From the little I've read about boosted H22a's, they can make a lot of torque and HP, but they're more difficult to tune when compared to a B-series engine.

HybridKOOP

I've heard the same... something about how tough it is to tune them. I wonder why...

B20T

H22 are good it depends on the year some are solid deck so they are stronger then b series. on tuning it's who you take it to. street tuning suck so spend the extra money. H22 is the **** if you go turbo, stay away from the t4/60-1 unless you go all out racing get a t3/60-1 with .48 turbine housing it will spool faster. I have the .63 and it is laggy full boost 3800-4000rpm

schwett

i don't think they're "difficult" to tune; but there are two factors which make them less than ideal candidates for boost... for cheap setups, the stock injectors are already pretty close to their limits, and it takes a ton of fuel pressure to get a safe a/f ratio, well over 100psi at 6 or 7 pounds of boost. bigger injectors do the trick as long as you can control them. the more pressing issue is that h22 pistons are very weak. tons of guys with broken ringlands (myself included) out there on low boost.

PrecisionH23a

If you run forged pistons inside any H series block, you have to resleeve the block. This is because the stock cylinder walls are lined with a "frm" coating, if you use forged pistons with your stock sleeves they will gum up and the motor will eventually lock up on you. The nsx and s2k motor also uses these sleeves. H series motors are GREAT boosted, but on stock internals usually the piston ringlands are the first thing to go bad. I have a fully built h23a motor as well as the hondata 4b and it only took roughtly 2.5 hrs to fully tune, if you have a dyno tuner that knows what they are doing they are as easy to tune as a B series motor. As far as the t4, that is a good question. Since our motors have a lot more displacement the t4 will spool quicker then on a B series motor theoretically. However i dont have first hand experience with this. 400whp is an easy goal to reach with a fully built H series motor provided you have the right fuel upgrades, fuel management, as well as proper size turbo. the t4/60-1 will get you there, but you might compensate your low end power with a slow spool for your top end power.

WONG FRIED RICE

bottom line...prelude ECU's SUCK for boost.

greengangsta

if u are thinking a boosting an h22 you better be thinking go all the way or nothing at all. some people get away with boosting that motor stock and not blowing up others dont. my motor is sleeved with je pistons/crower rods. i wouldn't take the chance if i were u. do it right the first time and save ur self some headache and stress. get the t4/60-1. it will be better in my opinion. i have a t3/toe with a .63 a/r and you would think it would spool slow, but nope. burn tire in first gear at like 3500-4000 and full boost is reached b4 that. dont be afraid of turbo lag. lag is ur friend, helps u get off the line cleanly without peeling tire, then the boost comes on ur gone!!!!!

by the way....my car pulls hard as hellllll. nuttin like it. h22 boost all the way

greengangsta

dont get me started on when the vtec kicks in....

Project_SOHC_EX

I do not wanna debate whether the closed or open deck Prelude engine is better as it will always be a subjuect of contention. What I will ask is what are the pros and cons of each style of engine(closed or open deck)? Also don't know if you know but I'm looking for an engine spec page that inlcudes the Final Drive Ratio for all of the Prelude engines.

VaporTrail

The 92-96 Ludes do not have a "frm" sleeve, only the 97+ do. If you want proof, look up factory oversized pistons for the 92-96 lude, then the 97+. The 92-96 has normal oversized pistons, just like a B series, but the 97+ has extremely small oversizes available, like .002 and .003

Boostless97Lude

oh oh.... simple asner to the main question...... HELL NO!!!!!


ok, ok, i'll give you a better answer in about a month..... i hope

HybridKOOP

Boosted: That looks nice.. was that a GE sleeve job? (Your website pics)

Boostless97Lude

yes they are GE rocks

MatT3T4

I was going to go ahead and basically do the same...H22A, T4/60-1...but then I said screw it. Too many horror stories from people I trust.

Heard problems with the ringlands saying bye-bye, heard problems with the oil delivery system, heard problems with the stock pistons, heard problems with the sleeves, etc...

My buddy Brian (texan) was talking about someone who has chronicled this...I think it was DirtyLude? Brian said something about him basically making a daily chronicle of his trials and tribulations with trying to get this **** to run correctly, and from what I understand DirtyLude is no fool...so it's not that some dumbass is tuning it.

You'll never really know until you try it though...however, I'll probably be sticking with the B16A route, and doing a complete overhaul and building the living **** out of it...

HybridKOOP

I was planning to go fully built/sleeved so I would avoid the ringland/sleeve problem.

I just have heard alot about tuning nightmares with the H22's... I'll probably stick to B-series since I have a good deal of background with them. Only problem to this is... I want to drive something a bit "classier" than a Civic/Integra... so that's why a late model 'Lude appealed to me.

Hrm.

MatT3T4

If you are going to go ahead and basically change everything...internals, ECU, etc...then I can't really see why you would have any problems. You would pretty much design the entire setup yourself. Oh yeah...ATTS...problem with ATTS. However, Brian was also saying something about the AEM EMS system being compatible with the ATTS system. He spoke with like, the guy who owns AEM, whoever that is, at SEMA last year. They said that they had never tried it, but upon thinking, he said it'll work. I don't know if you planned on using EMS...probably not...but like I said...if you are doing everything custom, you should be able to surpass all of the problems stock H22A's have.

Then again...you could always go with the B-series. I remember you from WAY back in the day on Hybrid...and I know you know your way around a B-series. That's what I'm doing too...I have no patience, so I think another turbocharged B16A will suit me just fine.

HybridKOOP

Crazy how many people remember me from the good old HYBRID board. Thats where I learned everything I know! But yeah, I'd be redesigning pretty much the entire makeup of the internal engine parts... so it'd all come down to tuning. And BTW, if I go the Prelude route, I'd buy the standard model to avoid the ATTS all together.

MatT3T4

werd

satan_srv

DirtyLude knows his ****! He has pictures of everything...and I mean everything!

skilzz

This is not true...I just took apart a 1996 "closed deck" H22A1 prelude and it does have something other than steel in the sleeve contruction, this car has never had a swap before so it is definately the original motor, the VIN tags match. It has Fiber Reinforced Metal sleeves. Production date...early 1996

BTW I took it apart because all four pistons had severe ring land damage, big chunks broken!! Melted wastegate tee connector = 20psi unwanted boost.

greengangsta

hey matT3T4, can u please explain what you have heard about the oil delivery problems. i am very interested in what goes wrong. does the oil pump fail or something?

xtal

H22A's have a bad rep, and I think most of it is unjustified. I have a 2000 Prelude and am currently acquiring parts for a custom turbo setup. I've researched this for almost 2 years now. There are lot of people who have attributed the engine with boost problems - I suspect most of these people have high IATs and/or are running the Jackson Racing supercharger. The JRSC has a lot of issues on the prelude, most of them related to the fact it's CARB ceritifed, and in order to do that, they had to use the stock injectors. The stock injectors can't add enough fuel without bumping the pressure. On "some" cars, this doesn't work. Ask schwett. That's my opinion, but enough people have had problems with the unit on the boards to turn me completely off the idea. I fail to see what the supercharger offers that a low boost, quick-spooling turbo won't.

Dirtylude, although I do not want to speak for him, ran the F-Max kit for over a year before he tore the engine down and it was in good shape. He had a lot of preventative measures in there, including a J&S Safeguard. That was with the supplied MF2 controller, not the superior VAFC hack. Check out the writeup on hondaprelude.to if you haven't, great stuff and he deserves mad props. I don't know how his high boost built engine adventures turned out. Almost everybody running a low boost turbo on the H22A stock has few or no issues. The issues start when they jack the boost or there is a boost spike (e.g. wastegate failure). This, I suspect, is because most people run an intercooler and that keeps the IATs down.

Further evidence can be had with the nitrous fiends: There are legions of people running kits on preludes in the 55-75 shot range with NO issues with stock timing and the existing fuel setup. This I attribute to the very very cold IATs which provide great detonation resistance. If the pistons were weak, then they would fail under nitrous use as well. To make a given HP number, the cylinder pressure is the same no matter what technique is applied.

Like everyone tells you, it's about tuning. Run a wideband O2 and get something to monitor your knock sensor in the car and you will be ok on low boost stock, or at least, as ok as can be expected. If you want to go big, call GE and do it right. I'm planning on starting a study of the prelude's knock sensor response on a stock configuration with my trusty tek scope and I'm sure it'll be most revealing.

The stock pistons are no stronger or weaker than any other cast piston Honda uses from what I can tell. The problems relate to the injectors being at a high duty cycle stock already, and high IATs contributing to detonation. Detonation on any engine == snap crackle pop ringlands.

I plan on the GE route when the motor fails, but I'd like to see how far it'll go before it does.

My $0.02

bgod

used to run an h22a turbo accord. running 10:1 fmu, vafc, link map bypass, paxton pump, paxton regulator, stock h22a1 ecu.

the h22a is a bitch to tune. a bitch is an understatement.

unless you can afford to go standalone right off the bat, i don't recommend h22a turbos to anyone. tuning the stock ecu is a bitch. it's nothing like a b series.

there's a reason why so many people even on this boards, present and past have not had good luck running the stock ecu.

xtal

Well, if you can't afford to go standalone, or money is even a factor, I don't recommend you turbo anything from Honda Motor Company .

A more interesting question would be has anyone asked WHY they're a bitch to tune. There is likely a fair bit of insight into this problem to be gained if someone can datalog the timing and fuel maps of a stock H22A engine. I wonder if Honda would complain if this information was published. If it's a bitch to tune with the stock ECU as a good starting point, it's not going to be any more fun to tune with a aftermarket unit.