CRX-RX

I was thinking of how I can put off getting a new tank and putting a sump pick up in at least for now. I know eventually there will be no option, but with a CRX in the midwest, I know I'm going to have replace everything when I do it so I'd like to put it off till I pick up a different chassis. So, I was thinking of running the stock fuel line into a small (possible 1 gal) "swirl pot", and running the pot pressurized and out to the rail. From there running a pickup to the bottom of that pot and using an inline pump with a one way valve on the other side to the a distrobution block to the rail. Wondering if anyone has done anything like this, or if there is a major hole in that idea that I'm missing. Thanks.

Oh, and I'd be using my ECU to turn on and off the inline pump with boost

TrueNorthStar

Older domestic cars do this very same thing when they upgrade from a carbuerator to an EFI system. They run the stock or upgraded intank fuel pump lines to what they call a "Surge Tank". There is a fitting at the very bottom of the surge tank that feeds an "inline" style fuel pump.

At the very top of the surge tank is where the fuel return line back to the stock tank goes. There are 3 lines total that run in to the upper area of the surge tank, the feed line from the stock tank, the return line from the inline fuel pump and the return line to the stock tank.

Basicly the surge tank is acting like a fuel cell, a very small fuel cell and you stock tank and pump are acting somewhat like the gas station for yor lil fuel cell .

CRX-RX

Ya, this is what I was thining of, like on speed challenge corvettes I've dealt with, but they run a constant rail pressure. So are you saying to only return the press from the inline, hmm how would I do that on a single rail setup? I was thinking of maybe splitting the return line, but don't know how I would insure that the surge tank would remain full by getting the return, and not just end up all dumping to the tank.

[EDIT] Re-read and got what you're saying, definately going to have to look into that setup.


Modified by CRX-RX at 12:29 AM 12/5/2003

TrueNorthStar

Heres a link to a lil "how to" for the surge tanks.

http://toyotaperformance.com/surge_tank.htm

BROOD

I would opt for the surge tank method over the sumped tank. A CRX(low ground clearance) in IL (sh!tty roads), I'd be too worried of damaging the sump or the supply fitting itself. I'm cutting it pretty close on my Civic with a sumped tank.

Do you need a fuel system beyond replacing the oem pump with a siphon tube and running an in-line pump? My friend runs a Bosch in-line with a siphon tube in the original location and he gets excellent results in his CRX. And his set-up is heck of alot simpler than mine.

Bnjmn

Surge tank is the way to go. It is the best setup bar none. It will eliminate problems during high g cornering, high g acceleration, and everything else that frustrates the stock tank. In addition you'll add a little extra protection if you like to run low on the fuel gauge.
I have a Holley red low pressure/high volume pump sucking fuel from the stock tank and pushing it to my surge tank in the engine compartment. After the surge tank I have a high pressure Walbro in-line pump feeding the fuel rail.
It is a lot more elegant than cutting/welding a sump into your stock tank and you'll never have any fuel starvation issues barring a mechanical failure.
Pricing is comparable to having a good welder put a sump on the stock tank, and you don't have 2 inches of sump hanging off your gas tank eager to cause clearance problems.

Ben

Bnjmn

Here is a picture of my surge tank setup-
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=644674

The surge tank is good for as many HP as you can muster, just depends on the fuel pump the you feed the high pressure (rail) side with. A holley red low pressure pump delivers something in the range of 90 gph, a holley blue is in the area of 110 gph, which works out to 400 liters per hour. Plenty for just about any setup.
My setup, with an inline high pressure Walbro and the holley red is good for around 600hp.
The beauty is that you don't need to mod your tank and get pretty much the best baffling possible.
I run 3/8" hard lines from the holley pump to the surge tank, and the blue lines are socketless lines...I couldn't justify the $$ for stainless lines, especially on lines running 0-3 psi which is what the lines to/from the surge tank have.
You can get -6AN to aluminum hard line adapters from Earl's.

Ben

h22 civic

nice good info i was wondering about that

CRX-RX

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bnjmn &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Surge tank is the way to go. It is the best setup bar none. It will eliminate problems during high g cornering, high g acceleration, and everything else that frustrates the stock tank. In addition you'll add a little extra protection if you like to run low on the fuel gauge.
I have a Holley red low pressure/high volume pump sucking fuel from the stock tank and pushing it to my surge tank in the engine compartment. After the surge tank I have a high pressure Walbro in-line pump feeding the fuel rail.
It is a lot more elegant than cutting/welding a sump into your stock tank and you'll never have any fuel starvation issues barring a mechanical failure.
Pricing is comparable to having a good welder put a sump on the stock tank, and you don't have 2 inches of sump hanging off your gas tank eager to cause clearance problems.

Ben
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Right on target with why I was considering this. Planning for dual apps of decent power and road race duty, so I'm never afraid to overbuild a fuel system. Probably run a stock pump (deathly afraid of that stock tank, and it's no EG, you can't just get in there) and an inline bosch pump (though I hate that it doesn't have an -AN fitting on one side ), now the only problem to me is how to lay it out to look good, and leave upgradeability to a second pump and room for it.

baphomet

Ben, do you think using a walbro 255lph HP for the intake feed to the surge tank will be okay. (I ask because I have one already)

I want to put in a surge tank to eliminate that ~1/4 tank starvation issue.

h22 civic

same heeeeeeeer

Bnjmn

You can use a high pressure pump to feed the surge tank. I used a low pressure tank because they flow a ton and they are really cheap. My Holley red was $50 (rebuilt) but they can be had for $25-50 on ebay.

The Walbro 255 pumps will flow a bit at very low pressure. Whichever pumps you choose, it is a good idea to make sure that the pump feeding the surge tank flows at least as much as the pump after the surge tank. This eliminates the chance of ever running into flow issues.

Ben

baphomet

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bnjmn &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You can use a high pressure pump to feed the surge tank. I used a low pressure tank because they flow a ton and they are really cheap. My Holley red was $50 (rebuilt) but they can be had for $25-50 on ebay.

The Walbro 255 pumps will flow a bit at very low pressure. Whichever pumps you choose, it is a good idea to make sure that the pump feeding the surge tank flows at least as much as the pump after the surge tank. This eliminates the chance of ever running into flow issues.

Ben</TD></TR></TABLE>
I wonder if I can use the walbro 255lph hp inline? I don't see why not, I'll just get creative with the zip ties, and use a holley for the low presure feed to the tank.

Bnjmn

I use a Walbro external pump after the surge tank- GSL392, graphs can be seen here- http://www.autoperformanceengi....html

It flows a bunch- should do up to at least 600hp without a problem.

The easiest/cheapest way to integrate a surge tank would be as follows-
use stock pump/fuel lines/filter. Get the proper fittings from Flamenco-T to go from the stock fuel filter to the surge tank. Then just get the right fittings to go from the inline pump after the surge tank to the fuel rail. Saves the hassle/$$ of changing out the stock lines and fuel pump and putting in your own. For absolute piece of mind this isn't the best way to go, especially if you are significantly adding hp (like 100+ hp over stock) since I have no idea what the stock pumps flow @ 0-2 psi. The surge tank adds a big safety barrier though, since it'll hold enough fuel for at least a few miles of full boost WOT or 1g+ turns.

You can get a 1 quart aluminum surge tank from Jegs (marketed as a catch can)for $35, then just have AN bungs welded on. I had my tank welded up from tubing (didn't know about the Jegs tank)- cost $80 including AN bungs welded.

Ben

Arturbo

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CRX-RX &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> and an inline bosch pump (though I hate that it doesn't have an -AN fitting on one side ), </TD></TR></TABLE>
YOu can get the bosch with -8 or -6 lines on either end. I did.

art

Killer_B

Very helpful thread guys but I have a couple of questions. I was under the impression that Volume is more important then pressure, so I drew a diagram below which is cost effective compared to running a huge Aeromotive Pump, –10 Feed Line and a Sump. (long sentence I know )

<U>Brief explanation of the Diagram</U>
-255 high pressure in-tank fuel pump
-stock fuel lines to and from the Fuel Tank to the Surge Tank
- -8an or –10an Feed line from Pump #2 to Fuel Rail
- -6an from Fuel Regulator to Surge Tank



<U>QUESTIONS</U>

1) will this set up work?
2) which pump do I need after the surge tank (Pump #2) to provide enough flow to feed a 450-500HP set up?
3) would you suggest a –8an or –10an Fuel feed line after Pump #2 ?
4) my tuner said that the Walbro high pressure 255 in-tank fuel pump is only good for 350hp which is the reason I am looking for an alternative to running a huge Aeromotive Pump, –10 Feed Line and a Sump. what do u guys think?

Modified by Killer_B at 6:38 PM 12/7/2003


Modified by Killer_B at 6:41 PM 12/7/2003

Bnjmn

I'll go through the scenario and you'll see that it is more than adequate.
You'll have a low/no pressure situation from the fuel tank to the surge tank. An in- tank Walbro 255 will flow somewhere around 75 gallons per hour for this setup. Very conservatively rated, this will put enough fuel in the surge tank for a 750hp+ setup. This is assuming the the stock lines will flow enough. Judging by Jason Hunt's ability to flow 500hp on stock lines, figure the stock lines are big enough to flow at least 500hp.
After the surge tank, I use an inline high pressure Walbro 255. This will flow enough for around 600+hp. I use -6AN lines on everything- these will be more than adequate for your app.
The Aeromotive is good up to 750hp or so. Serious overkill in your case. -8 or -10 lines will be a waste as well.
I don't know what pump the tuner was referring to when he said that the Walbro was good up to 350hp. The in-tank 255 and the in-tank 255 high pressure are good up the mid 500's.
You may want to ditch the stock fuel filter since it might be a restriction. I run a Russell filter on the low pressure side.

I'd avoid doing any of this and see how you do with just the in tank 255. When your car is getting tuned- if your setup is leaning out or you have starvation problems while driving/racing, then start spending money and upgrading.

Ben

Bnjmn

Just to correct the pressures in the picture-
Everything to/from the stock tank will be low/no pressure- there is no pressure regulator to build pressure and when the surge tank fills up, the gas just flows back to the main tank. There is nothing to build up pressure.
After the surge tank, but before the 2nd fuel pump there will be no/low pressure.
After then 2nd fuel pump there will be high pressure to the fuel rail, after the rail, to the the regulator, and then it drops after the regulator to the surge tank.

Killer_B

does anyone know Mr. Hunts Fuel set up? he is making 500+HP with the 255 intank but i'm sure his EMS and other parts are helping use that Fuel efficently.


i have Hondata S200B, HP 255 intank & 85lb injectors.

h22 civic

im gonna give it a shot on a project i got going see what happens im using the convensional aeromotive pump with stock sumped tank now on a strete car no probs but just dont like the idea im sitting on a bomb