solowerks

I'm finally working on my turbo setup's fuel managment. I want to run the hack because I don't have the money for the Hondata or anything better at the time and this is a temporary solution for that.

Ive been doing alot searching for a thread that speaks of the hack ran on a h22a and I can't find what I am looking for. I will be running 6 psi daily on the hack and did some math. I figured 6 psi will put down 240whp hopefully on the h22a...

<U>240 WHP x .60 B.S.F.C</U>
4 inj. x .80 duty cycle

= 46.875 lbs/hr x 10.5 = 492.2 cc/min

I understand that my car will not put out 240 hp through out the entire rpm band so that number isn't necessarily the amount of fuel I will need to run all the time. Running the hack with already under rated injectors(450) scares me. Plus after setting the afc to the proper settings to lower the map voltage will reduce this even more. Setting the afc around -40 at idle is perfect because that means the 450's will flow near the stock injector rate. for Hi/Lo throttle settings though, it can't be set too low(meaning -35 like all the D series gurue's run) or the h22a will run extremely lean and probably detonate, but if you don't set the afc low enough the map sensor will detect the boost.

I have a friend that recently just got his boosted h22 running on the hack and he says that it has had no problems and runs great. I believe him, but have not seen it for my own eyes yet and I don't think he has had it on the road long enough to know. The reason I am contemplating the hack is because I believe in it, I just wana do it right. Many people have told me that it works on all Honda motors, but if it isn't done right like anything, it won't work.

Am I on track with my thoughts? I think I am but I may be forgetting some things at the moment. If anyone can post there settings on the afc I would appreciate it to give me a ball park of what works. I just don't understand how this can work using injectors that are too small...

ltho1998

You might want to consider the greddy emanage as an alternative because it has a boost option as well as the ability to retard timing.

Jays91DXhatch

**WATCHES THREAD**

I'm doing a Turbo setup on a 5th Gen Lude as well and will be running the hack at 6psi.

I have some Ideas but I haven't done it yet so I'll wait and hopefully someone will chime in.

b16hybridsol

i think the reason mine is working is because i have so many misc. parts put together usdm p30, dsm 450s,settings are odd compaired to everyone elses but they work (-16 to about -23ish leaned a little out in vtec) jdm h22 running 7psi, timing retarded about 3-4 degrees from the dizzy, only problem i'm having right now is keepin oil outta my charge pipes. I've ran this set up for about uummall of 15 miles now ha so not much time on it, but i stopped because of the oil thing, and this is all just temp till my hondata get tuned at the end of this month

solowerks

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by b16hybridsol &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i think the reason mine is working is because i have so many misc. parts put together usdm p30, dsm 450s,settings are odd compaired to everyone elses but they work (-16 to about -23ish leaned a little out in vtec) jdm h22 running 7psi, timing retarded about 3-4 degrees from the dizzy, only problem i'm having right now is keepin oil outta my charge pipes. I've ran this set up for about uummall of 15 miles now ha so not much time on it, but i stopped because of the oil thing, and this is all just temp till my hondata get tuned at the end of this month </TD></TR></TABLE>

Although you are using a p30 ecu, you still need to supply the fuel to the bigger engine regardless of whether or not it is a p13 or p30. You still need to lean it out enough to trick the map sensor and adjust the fuel correctly. So how can the 450's be supplying enough fuel even at a -16% of the 450cc

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ltho1998 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You might want to consider the greddy emanage as an alternative because it has a boost option as well as the ability to retard timing.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Im gona check into it

b16hybridsol

-16% is taken off the duty cycle that honda has supplied to the stock injectors to run at, so say my p30 is programmed to run 240s at 90 %duty cycle then leaning that signal out by 16% allows the 450s to run at 74% duty cycle (just an example)because its a bigger injector, it needs to be leaned out more. Anything o% or above will make you throw a code and put you in limp mode, if you use bigger injectors. So basically that -16% i was talking about is that percentage taken off the stock duty cycle at a certain rpm

solowerks

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by b16hybridsol &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">-16% is taken off the duty cycle that honda has supplied to the stock injectors to run at, so say my p30 is programmed to run 240s at 90 %duty cycle then leaning that signal out by 16% allows the 450s to run at 74% duty cycle (just an example)because its a bigger injector, it needs to be leaned out more. Anything o% or above will make you throw a code and put you in limp mode, if you use bigger injectors. So basically that -16% i was talking about is that percentage taken off the stock duty cycle at a certain rpm</TD></TR></TABLE>

So as long as you lean the afc below 0% your fine?

If you are, for example, saying your 450s are running at 74% duty cycle then that means if you are running around 6 psi, like I would like to, around 240 hp (average ive found from 6 psi on a h22a) then that means:

<U>240hp x .60 bsfc</U>
4 inj x .74% duty cycle

=48.65 lbs/hr = 510.825 cc/min


Thats worse than I was before. I understand the logistics behind leaning it out on the afc to trick the map and ecu, but the fact still stands, your not supplying enough fuel..When people say the hack works wonders on their car people need to specify what motor they run because there is a big difference in the fuel consumption on a D series motor compared to an H series. If I had a D series I wouldn't question this, but the numbers are what I trust and they don't work out. Maybe if bigger injectors were supplied in place of 450's on the h motor like 550's or higher, you would supply enough fuel to run the hack leaning it out. As of now the "ol skool" technology seems best in my mind using a missing link and just tuning it using a wideband and A/F gauge. But the 450s still wouldn't supply enough for 240 hp it seems if the equation is correct

KS-R

This is a very interesting topic.

I've tried the AFC hack with my buddies D series.. Never with a B or H. But we're running H22 injectors in the D series.. So.. kind of like 450cc in a B series. I guess.. Just different settings.

Would be interesting to see how this would work with a H series motor. I think it makes a big difference with what ecu you're using. P13 vs. P28 vs. P30. And also the injectors you're using. Cause the stock ecu with respect to their motor is programmed for a certain duty cycle. When you start mixing and matching ecu/injectors you run into fuel delivery problems.

I know with a H22 motor, you run B18 injectors with a P13 ecu in it.. It will run like crap! Basically cause the ecu is telling the injectors to pulse at a lower rate.. So.. it's not getting enough fuel. Now.. H22 motor, H22 injectors, P30 ecu... It will run rich.. cause the P30 isn't compensating for the larger injectors duty cycle.

LOL.. Now, I'm kind of confusing myself here. Anybody get what I'm saying? OH right.. the point was.. depends what kind of ecu you're using to give the right amount of fuel.

Damn, with all this hacking. Better off getting a Greddy e-manage. Then again.. the hack is cheaper. Anything is better than an FMU.

I'm planning on running turbo on one of my H22 Civics ( I have all 3 generations EF, EG, EK with an H22 them).

solowerks

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by KS-R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Would be interesting to see how this would work with a H series motor. I think it makes a big difference with what ecu you're using. P13 vs. P28 vs. P30. And also the injectors you're using. Cause the stock ecu with respect to their motor is programmed for a certain duty cycle. When you start mixing and matching ecu/injectors you run into fuel delivery problems.

I know with a H22 motor, you run B18 injectors with a P13 ecu in it.. It will run like crap! Basically cause the ecu is telling the injectors to pulse at a lower rate.. So.. it's not getting enough fuel. Now.. H22 motor, H22 injectors, P30 ecu... It will run rich.. cause the P30 isn't compensating for the larger injectors duty cycle.

LOL.. Now, I'm kind of confusing myself here. Anybody get what I'm saying? OH right.. the point was.. depends what kind of ecu you're using to give the right amount of fuel.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes I get your point, basicly a p30 runs a higher duty cycle. Has to be higher than 80% but that doesn't make sense because I thought you weren't supposed to run any injector higher than 80% dc? So if that is the case then considering it runs at 90% duty cycle means that you would need a 420 cc/min flow injector for 240hp. But then you can't lean it out on the afc at all to trick the map sensor or you will be running lean again. I don't think the hack works on a H motor with 450cc inj, at least not reliably


Modified by solowerks at 6:32 PM 4/9/2004

gdrum

I have a bone stock h22a4 that i just chiped a p06 to basically p28 and am running uberdata 6psi...had dsm 450s but they were to lean for me so went to 660cc's just to be safe and for long run.

b16hybridsol

yea, this isn't anywhere near being a perminent set up, i'm waiting for a local shop to get there dyno **** around, and the base map in my hondata is ghey, so i'm just running the hack with 450s, when i get my **** around it'll be hondata stage 4b and sumthin around 680s. Solo is just waitin to get his **** around too. For a temperary set up i think the hack is totally fine, and if its tuned i think it could be used as some what reasonable program for boost and moderate driving