When looking at the maps, remember he was only going to 15 psi and 8500 rpm.

 

NOt exactly the best AFR curve if you ask me there Mike.. there are some issues with that tune as well.

 

To me, that is a lot of timing on 15 psi with pump gas. Be careful with that even on forged internals. They aren't completely bullet proof. Eitehr way, the whole ignition map is aggressive as hell IMO.

The graph isn't the worst but also isn't the best either. Almost like they didn't tune the fuel. A little rich for my taste. Probably could have gained a little more with a 12:1 A/F.

Was the static ignition timing set with the EMS before tuning even started. This is VERY important (Maybe this was covered but I am too lazy to look).

Also, they made 25 runs to get this and stopped??

 

For the most part, the A/F ranged from 11.8-12.8 througout the day. He said he was tuning for the 12.3 range for a street car. I'm not sure why the dyno graph posted was all lower than 12. Most of the graphs where a little leaner and smoother as far as A/F goes, but this one was the peak power of the day.

27 runs total were made (in 4 hours) Run 26 and 27 were with 16 psi and it went down to 300 hp and showed a lot more spikes in the knock.

They set the static ignition timing to 16 degrees at first. Then they adjusted the intake cam gear and checked the timing and it was 16.5. He said thats fine and made another run. I asked if they had to rotate the distributor to bring the static back to 16 and he said no, they can do that with the AEM. As long as they are reading the same.

 

To me its pretty obvious the tuners have no clue what they are doing. Why in the world would you scale the fuel/timing maps up to 35 psi???? I know you didnt mention how much boost he planned on running but wtf, its not a race car and most street cars built for the track wont touch those boost levels. Timing is really unsafe for pump gas......gee, I wonder why they were getting knock spikes
I really think if you bring the car elsewhere for tuning then you will be much happier with the setup.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ranta18 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> I asked if they had to rotate the distributor to bring the static back to 16 and he said no, they can do that with the AEM. As long as they are reading the same.</TD></TR></TABLE>

This is completely wrong, you set it static with the distributor first so the AEM knows how to compenstate. There is a wizard in the software to do this correctly.

See above what LS said, go somewhere else.

 

Holy Lots of Timing, Batman.

Tell your boy to get a Hondata and call me.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Suprdave &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Holy Lots of Timing, Batman.

Tell your boy to get a Hondata and call me.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Why do you hate the AEM EMS so much???

 

ERL says the block can handle over 30 psi, so maybe thats why he scaled it that high.

This sucks because he spent some good money on getting it tuned.

We need to look at the cam gears, make sure they are ok, degree the cams, and get that all set.

Do you guys think the whole problem is the timing map? What suggestions do you have to correct it? As you know, you can select a whole region and hit - and it will subtract timing. How much should be taken out and what areas?

Brad - I think they ment they would set the static in the EMS to 16.5 to match the crank. I asked about this twice because I thought you always set the crank and computer to 16. If he gets to the dyno again before the 18th do you think you would be able to swing by and lend a hand?

Dave - Hondata is not an option at this point. I've been over this.

 

That timing map is extremely dangerous. I wouldn't get on it on the street.

 

Thanks for all the help and feedback by the way guys.

What should the MAX timing be at 15 psi and 8500 rpm? Its about 29 now. If it should be say 25, could he select the entire boosted area and hit - until that one stop is at 25 and then that would scale the whole map down. Should he do that?


Modified by ranta18 at 5:40 PM 9/9/2004

 

15psi on a 9:1 motor, 18-20deg would be a good place to start from.

 

Wow that is a scary tune

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ranta18 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Thanks for all the help and feedback by the way guys.

What should the MAX timing be at 15 psi and 8500 rpm? Its about 29 now. If it should be say 25, could he select the entire boosted area and hit - until that one stop is at 25 and then that would scale the whole map down. Should he do that?


Modified by ranta18 at 5:40 PM 9/9/2004</TD></TR></TABLE>

For more psi (like 25 you will want less timing than at 15. I would say around 12-14 to be conservative. As I stated before (as well as others) this car should have never left the fuggin shop this way.

Sorry but booked this weekend and Next weekend Toby gets married so that is out as well. Carl and Bodyshop are in line first as they need tuning as well. Just don't have the time right now.

 

By looking at the timing map can he just scale the positive pressure (boost) part down or should some parts go down more than others? What we need is a number to go to. Take 8500 rpm and 15 psi.... what should the timing number be? Its about 29 now. If you think it should be 20, then that gives him a number to scale the boosted part down to. See what I'm saying?

If he can get to the dyno we might be able to smoothen out the fuel map a little more. How does the fuel map look other than it ran a little rich that time?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ranta18 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">By looking at the timing map can he just scale the positive pressure (boost) part down or should some parts go down more than others? What we need is a number to go to. Take 8500 rpm and 15 psi.... what should the timing number be? Its about 29 now. If you think it should be 20, then that gives him a number to scale the boosted part down to. See what I'm saying?

If he can get to the dyno we might be able to smoothen out the fuel map a little more. How does the fuel map look other than it ran a little rich that time?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes, scale it down...........a lot.
HIgher PSI should be lower than lower psi. It should incrementally go down. from lower psi to higher psi.

Smooth it to an even 12:1. It is rich and choppy. Actually the whole tune suck very large donkey ***** for what he paid for.

 

Brad you need to tell me a number to scale it down to or how many degrees to take out. How are we suppose to know how much to subtract? I need a number so I know where to stop taking out timing. I understand the higher the psi, the lower the timing (its setup like that now), thats why we can just highlight the whole boosted part and take say 10 degrees out and it will subtract 10 degrees from every value in the table.

 

Hey Mike - it would not be a great idea to scale back the timing on the whole tune - but as long as its within reason would be BETTER than where it currently sits. I'm sure that set up was not cheap - so please dont have him run that at all. In fact - pull the vacuum line and run N/A until you can put a REAL tune on that thing. Bring it up to Dave at the Whip Factory - although he obviously prefers Hondata for street cars - I'm sure he'll tune the AEM for you guys. He's done tuning with K Pro which is much more intricate than AEM..

Anyways - there are some GUIDELINE numbers for timing listed above from Ladysman and DiRep - but I would ONLY use them as a safer option than the tune he already has. Thats too expensive of a set up to be running on that kind of tune at all. I wouldn't be surprised if something is already going foul inside on that..

Be careful.. Tell him to WAIT for a tune.. A real one. That **** is garbage.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ranta18 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Brad you need to tell me a number to scale it down to or how many degrees to take out. How are we suppose to know how much to subtract? I need a number so I know where to stop taking out timing. I understand the higher the psi, the lower the timing (its setup like that now), thats why we can just highlight the whole boosted part and take say 10 degrees out and it will subtract 10 degrees from every value in the table.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Start at 20 on 15 psi and take it easy on the car til you can hit a dyno and a REAL tuner. Dont just start scaling back and hoping that what someone elses set up works for him..

 

If you really wanna be safe...start at the onset of boost and pull .75 degree for each pound of boost...

So lets say the motor wants 30 degrees at 0 Vacuum, 0 Boost.

10 PSI = ~22 Degrees

15 PSI = ~18 Degrees

Just make your Ignition Columns Static (Leave them the same at all rpm) in that load column. Atleast that will keep things safe till you can get on the dyno again.

 

if the car wasnt detonating like all hell at those timing levels then i doubt the ign timing was synced properly. recheck it and start with a base cal.

superdave... its obvious you suck at the ems so go find your own thread. if anyone has problems with their ems its due to wiring problems or tuner problems. EVERY ems install i do is for a street car and a rarely have to change anything once i tune the car. 90% of the cars drive and run so well you wouldnt know the engine wasnt stock unless the owner told you.

 

Good for you...

I can say the same thing.

I prefer Hondata on Street Hondas...You prefer EMS.

Whats the Issue?

 

im gonna go w/ jdogg on this as well. If you took two of my cars, one i tuned w/ hondata and one i tuned w/ the AEM, I'll bet u $$ u wont know which is which.


BTW, to the creator of the thread, that motor is a miracle if its still running after that kind of timing... fix that timing fast!

 

I think we can agree that any properly tuned EMS (Hondata, Motec, AEM, etc) is going to have a very similar dyno-chart...Right?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Suprdave &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think we can agree that any properly tuned EMS (Hondata, Motec, AEM, etc) is going to have a very similar dyno-chart...Right?


</TD></TR></TABLE>

yup, and ive proven it, but its not only just about WOT power, its drivability as well.