That sucks man...If he says he spun the crank, did he check for thrust clearance? I doubt it...Do you think he may have used the wrong size washers? How does the crank surface and Main Cap look where the washers sit? Does it look like there was a lot of material cut off? If so, the assembler may have used the wrong size washers causing them to move and cut into the crank, that will cause your metal flaking all thru the oil...Then as the oil pickup got clogged, your thrust washers and bearings were getting eaten away from lack of oil...

The engine assembly should have included checking for proper clearance throughout the bottom end...Main Bearings, Rod Bearings, and Thrust Washer clearances should have been high priority with any engine buildup, especially with your money in their hands...

The Crankshaft should have been checked for acceptable thrust movement and this whole disaster would have been avoided...

This company, no matter how many engines they have built, should have put your motor together as they did the others they have successfully put together...They obviously didn't care about your motor, maybe because it was a Single Cam...They most likely thought everything was ok but Negligence is not acceptable and you deserve at least your money back in full, if not a properly assembled motor and the shop should really be embarrassed at this...

Don't let them get away with a simple, "it must have overheated," excuse...Its good to see this **** on here, because shops that ignore their paying customers need to be dealt with where it hurts, in their pockets...

Do push this issue and get your money's worth...

Shops that address these problems in the correct and fair manner should be praised and given good referals to other enthusiasts looking for quality customer service as well as workmanship...

 

hey foo! ill be back in town tomorrow night, for another 2 weeks, and then its off to cali. any news on whether Moe or SI is gonna help you? did you ever get the other block re-assembled/ordered new parts?
X-eric-X

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by brryder &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">25 miles isn't really anything. You should of waited at least 500 miles. </TD></TR></TABLE>

i just finished a re-built a motor today and got it running, warmed it up, took it to 8000 RPMS many times, with 8 psi, and no problems.

this was all within the first 5 miles.

if that fell out or came out in any way, the motor was either put togeather wrong, thrust washers installed backwards, or there was dirt in one of the oil galleys...

 

suinrise: thanks a ton! thats alot of good info there.
ill try to answer all you questions:
here is what i know:
i do not knowif he checked the thrust clearences, he said that the crank play (side to side) was "good"
i am not sure if he used the wrong size washers, i brought him the washers that were originally in the motor, i think/am pretty sure he reused them.
the crank, main caps and pockets where the crank sits as awell as the crank al all trashed. you can see the ridges in the crank (all the main journels) the pockets where the crank sits is torn up pretty bad too. the main cap has wear on the outer most edge (like the crank was scraping the main cap after it walked) The place where the thrust washers shoulda been (main cap and on the block are all scraped up pretty bad)
the oil pick up was clogged with chunks of metal, this is probaly ruined my #4 rod.
i agree that the clearences should of been checked throughout the whole bottom end. i know for a fact that they werent, he said that he didnt even plastic-guage the bearings.
im not sure if he checked the clearences for the thrust movement. how would you do this? what tools are involed? (so i can ask him if he did it)

i agree that that they should build every motor like it is going in thier race car, but maybe becase it is a sohc that dont care? not sure why?
i am hoping that i will get all my money back; but he is offering to give me all new parts at cost. i dont think this is fair, i will still have to come up with $1000 to get everything running again. this is on top of the $1200 (for the assembly/parts) 700 for the block/tranyy/ecu. and $800 for the pistons and rods.
i have sent alot of business thier way. if they dont fix the problem they created then i will make sure to put a dent in thier business.
hopefully i wont come to this.

the problem that i face now is proving that the thrust washers fell out due to a bad assembly, not to overheating (like they say)
anyone know of a undisputable way that i can prove this?

thanks for everyones help.

Kelly (at servions house)

 

He obviously incorrectly built the motor.

If he is a professional engine builder, he would have many many tools, several dial indicators, bore indicators, he will have a nice set of calipers, feeler gauges..

and he will use them when he assembles your engine.

EVERY bearing journal, (main and rod) should have been measured with calipers, checked for out of round, the crank should have been checked for straightness, the main bearing bores should have been checked for out of roundness, the rods should have been checked for twist, out of round, or bending, the bores should be checked in several spots to make sure that they are within spec, EVERY thrust clearance should be inspected (each rod, and the crank should be checked)

the bearing clearances should be checked, plastigauge is OK, but not what a professional should use, a professional will use a set of calipers and measure the ID of the rod and crank journals with a set of calipers, and the crank OD and calculate the oil clearance..

The motor should be assembled in a seperate room, with tools designated only for engine building.

The block should be cleaned, then cleaned, then cleaned again................

Re-using thrust washers is generally OK on an import motor, HOWEVER, in a high performance application you should always re-use them, beacuse generally you run an uprated clutch which can increase thrust loads on the crank.

The engine should be assembled with a high quality engine assembly lubricant, rather than engine oil...

I would be hard pressed to blame that thrust washer spinning on anything other than he made a mistake, or took a shortcut when assembling the shortblock.


If he didn't measure clearances, he should cover the whole fee, as its 100% his fault.

 

Well you said you took it in to get assembled, I wonder if it was to just throw it together?

 

Are you sure this is the whole story? What happened to 450miles on the motor when this happened? What happened to the oil light coming on and you kept on driving after that. The story keeps changing. I have our conversations saved, other posts posted on other forums. There is a different story every time. The motor was assembled properly. Everything was checked. There is other things that were recommended to be done, like resurfacing the head, but you refused. Which caused the head gasket to leak. We never installed the motor, we never witnessed anything that happened after that block was picked up from us. We dont even know if there was enough oil in the motor. Any other motor built and installed into the car by us which is pretty much starting from scratch to handing you the key, we do warranty it. We made sure you know we dont warranty turbo motors before starting the work. The first time you found the leaking head gasket and the scuffs on the cylinder walls, you requested another block or a $150 to buy the block you found, we gave you the $150 with no problems or anything. We even told you at that time, just put the head back on the motor and if ANY thing happens we will cover the whole motor, you refused to take that option and requested the $150. Then 450miles later, the motor blows up. The motor was revved before the 450miles and driven, compression was fine. Even boosted. But if you seriously look at the conversations we had and after having several people read it. Something doesnt sound right. I told you I will try to help you as much as I can to get ur motor up and running. I gave you the brand new stainless steel valves for ur head that we had at the shop, I told you we have a stack of brand new oem honda bearings for that motor, as long as its the right color you need and you can have them.

I just want you to know there is no need to threaten us or any of that, we worked with you and we are trying to help you out as much as we can. You can look at the back of the reciept and what was written on the reciept.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JGC5INTEGRA &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Then 450miles later, the motor blows up. The motor was revved before the 450miles and driven, compression was fine.</TD></TR></TABLE>

So this means you had nothing to do with the assembly. Even if it was an assembly error? Sound messed up to me.

 

I have not seen this happen on a honda,but I've seen it many times on chevy oval track engines.Its caused by not enough free play in the throw out bearing on the clutch or a driver that rests his foot on the clutch pedal.This loads the rear thrust all the time and it cant keep the oil film.It also happens when the pilot bushing is too far out and the end of the main shaft runs on it .
Glenn

 

^^^^^^^^^ this is moe, he os the one that build my motor.^^^^^ got questions, please ask him.
Moe.
This is kelly...
i am not blaming you. i am on here to try to figure out why the thrust washers fell out.
you say it is due to overheating, but the thrust washer shows no sign of scortching. i know that i didnt overheat the motor. there was always plently of oil.
im not attacking you:
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">they have build alot of honda motors. a few 10sec cars, a few 11 sec cars and a assload of 12 sec cars. i would think they know what they are doing?</TD></TR></TABLE>
i never said that you dot know how to build a motor. i think you do. but the problem is now, that my motor is ruined.
would you mind answering some of the questions on here. people are asking: ie... did you check end play?
were all the clearences checked? (what clearences were they)
i siad that you did not plastic guage the bearings, that is what you said right???

like i said, im just tryin to find out any other way that these washers could of fell out. no one so far has siad overheating will cause that. everyone says that it is a assembly problem . do you have a response to that?

and how has my story changed? i have been nothing but truthful with you guys. trust me i would rather not be where we are to day, id rather have a running motor and we would both be happy.

please answer some of the questions on here, there are alot of guys that do the same thing as you do and have asked legit questions.

Thanks for everyones help.
Kelly (at servions house)

PS- i dont want this to turn into a bash against Moe or SpeedImage, we are in the process of working this out. hopefully everyone here can be adults about this.

 

bump. for more help or to have moe answer someof the questions.

thanks

 

I have a possible series of events. First, it is impossible for the thrust washers to fall out of the block to the pan unless this chain events were to happen.
1)The REAR thrust washer (closest to flywheel) was installed backwards with the grooves facing the timing belt.
2)The front thrust washer was installed EITHER properly or backwards, does not matter. It is just a spacer and is rarely loaded.
3)The crank end play was checked and it was perfect. The clearance would be the same no matter which direction the thrust washers were installed.
4)As the engine is started, oil leaving the mains would slightly oil both the front and rear thrusts.
5)As the car is driven, a big load is put on the rear thrusts because of clutch usage. Inadequate oil supply to the rear thrust causes heat build up and deteriation of the rear thrust over a period of time.
6)Finally, the thrust gets hotter, blacker and softer until it is expelled past the main cap.
7)Once this happens, the next time the clutch is used, it moves the crank to the rear of the engine causing oil holes not to line up between the crank and bearings.
8)This causes mains to heat up because of oil starvation and spin.
9)Since there is no load on the front thrust, the crank kicks it out almost untouched as the #4 main starts to spin with it.

I just don't see any other logical way a thrust can come out of the engine unless the #4 main cap was loose enough to give room for the thrust to fall out. But then you would not have the one thrust black and bent up.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by earl &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I have a possible series of events. First, it is impossible for the thrust washers to fall out of the block to the pan unless this chain events were to happen.
1)The REAR thrust washer was installed backwards with the grooves facing the flywheel.
2)The front thrust washer was installed EITHER properly or backwards, does not matter. It is just a spacer and is rarely loaded.
3)The crank end play was checked and it was perfect. The clearance would be the same no matter which direction the thrust washers were installed.
4)As the engine is started, oil leaving the mains would slightly oil both the front and rear thrusts.
5)As the car is driven, a big load is put on the rear thrusts because of clutch usage. Inadequate oil supply to the rear thrust causes heat build up and deteriation of the rear thrust over a period of time.
6)Finally, the thrust gets hotter, blacker and softer until it is expelled past the main cap.
7)Once this happens, the next time the clutch is used, it moves the crank to the rear of the engine causing oil holes not to line up between the crank and bearings.
8)This causes mains to heat up because of oil starvation and spin.
9)Since there is no load on the front thrust, the crank kicks it out almost untouched as the #4 main starts to spin with it.

I just don't see any other logical way a thrust can come out of the engine unless the #4 main cap was loose enough to give room for the thrust to fall out. But then you would not have the one thrust black and bent up.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Earl: thanks for your help
i stil have a few small questions:
when you say "rear thrust washer" are you referring to the one closest to the flyweel or to the timing belt?
also the way you describe ie it sounds like there is no way this could be a break in problem, is this a true statement?

Thanks again for all your help. i will pass the info on to the shop and see what we can do about it.
thanks for your time, youve helped so much!
Kelly

 

Nice! I don't know if I'm reading this wrong, but the rear thrust washer SHOULD have the grooves facing the flywheel. Both thrust washer grooves face outward, so the rear grooves would be facing the flywheel. I don't know if it was just a typo or me reading it wrong.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by earl &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">1)The REAR thrust washer was installed backwards with the grooves facing the flywheel.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by llewsirc &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
when you say "rear thrust washer" are you referring to the one closest to the flyweel or to the timing belt?

Kelly</TD></TR></TABLE>

flywheel. Usually the front of motors are determined where the belts are.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by llewsirc &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Earl: thanks for your help
i stil have a few small questions:
when you say "rear thrust washer" are you referring to the one closest to the flyweel or to the timing belt?
also the way you describe ie it sounds like there is no way this could be a break in problem, is this a true statement?

Thanks again for all your help. i will pass the info on to the shop and see what we can do about it.
thanks for your time, youve helped so much!
Kelly</TD></TR></TABLE>Rear thrust washer would be the one closest to the flywheel.
Not one chance in a million this could have happened because of your break-in procedure.

 

thanks again Earl !
ill take this info to the shop and see what they say.

ill keep everyone posted with the outcome, either good or bad.

thanks to everyone that helped.
i apprecaite(sp?) the help.
Kelly

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sporkcrx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Nice! I don't know if I'm reading this wrong, but the rear thrust washer SHOULD have the grooves facing the flywheel. Both thrust washer grooves face outward, so the rear grooves would be facing the flywheel. I don't know if it was just a typo or me reading it wrong.
</TD></TR></TABLE>Yeah, I am confusing myself now and you are right. The front thrust grooves face front. The rear thrust (closest to flywheel) grooves face the flywheel. I had to go out to the garage and take a look to be sure I was saying this right.
I'm going to go back to my original post and clean up my goof. But the theory is correct, I believe.

 

OK, I fixed my original post in case you want to use it.

 

and I get no love for standin around an watchin

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GimPin &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">and I get no love for standin around an watchin </TD></TR></TABLE>
nope. no credit. at all.
earl, thanks for all the insight on everything, its been quite a hassle trying to figure out what caused this, and it honestly sounds like youve hit the nail directly on the head.
X-eric-X