E85 vs Premium For boost
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 62
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Re: E85 vs Premium For boost
I won't chime in for the technical aspects but 2 points to correct.
1. E85 is not better for the environment in the USA.
The energy balance for ethanol production from corn (usa) is 1:1.3
So you use the equivalent energy of one barrel of ethanol to produce 1.3 barrels of ethanol. This actually makes it almost pointless to produce ethanol from corn here considering all the resources could have been better spent than making corn ethanol.
In Brazil, using sugar cane, they achieve an energy balance of around 1:8. That starts becoming worthwhile but is still on the low end. Compare this to the energy balance of an onshore oil well which I've heard is around 1:200.
2. Ethanol consumption used to be thought to be more environmentally friendly to the environment than gasoline consumption. The environmental activists used to favor it.
Unfortunately, evidence has accumulated to indicate that when using corn for ethanol, the cost to the environment is actually higher than from using oil. You will notice most environmental groups have changed their information to reflect this.
This is the current and best information available as far as I am aware.
Also
3. Ethanol takes in a tremendous amount of subsidies in the USA. In fact it's not profitable without them. This money which the government taxes, would probably have found a profitable source to finance and have been spent much more effectively by the persons who actually earned it. Instead it gets wasted inefficiently and has unintended consequences such as...
4. Raising the price of food and feed. There's a limited supply of arable land and when it's all growing corn for inefficient usage it can't be used to grow a profitable crop. So all food supply is decreased while demand remains the same causing price raises. Obviously corn price also goes up.
5. Oil also has a huge number of other uses. It is used to make plastics, fertilizers, tires, paints, enamels, solvents, chemicals of all sorts. The subsidized use of oil and oil products for the inefficient corn ethanol (and there is a lot of oil used to produce ethanol) causes increased demand for oil and also raises prices in all of these areas.
IMHO follow the technical advice given here, use gas, oil, propane, hydrogen, methanol or whatever based on your technical needs and supply in your area.
1. E85 is not better for the environment in the USA.
The energy balance for ethanol production from corn (usa) is 1:1.3
So you use the equivalent energy of one barrel of ethanol to produce 1.3 barrels of ethanol. This actually makes it almost pointless to produce ethanol from corn here considering all the resources could have been better spent than making corn ethanol.
In Brazil, using sugar cane, they achieve an energy balance of around 1:8. That starts becoming worthwhile but is still on the low end. Compare this to the energy balance of an onshore oil well which I've heard is around 1:200.
2. Ethanol consumption used to be thought to be more environmentally friendly to the environment than gasoline consumption. The environmental activists used to favor it.
Unfortunately, evidence has accumulated to indicate that when using corn for ethanol, the cost to the environment is actually higher than from using oil. You will notice most environmental groups have changed their information to reflect this.
This is the current and best information available as far as I am aware.
Also
3. Ethanol takes in a tremendous amount of subsidies in the USA. In fact it's not profitable without them. This money which the government taxes, would probably have found a profitable source to finance and have been spent much more effectively by the persons who actually earned it. Instead it gets wasted inefficiently and has unintended consequences such as...
4. Raising the price of food and feed. There's a limited supply of arable land and when it's all growing corn for inefficient usage it can't be used to grow a profitable crop. So all food supply is decreased while demand remains the same causing price raises. Obviously corn price also goes up.
5. Oil also has a huge number of other uses. It is used to make plastics, fertilizers, tires, paints, enamels, solvents, chemicals of all sorts. The subsidized use of oil and oil products for the inefficient corn ethanol (and there is a lot of oil used to produce ethanol) causes increased demand for oil and also raises prices in all of these areas.
IMHO follow the technical advice given here, use gas, oil, propane, hydrogen, methanol or whatever based on your technical needs and supply in your area.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 6,381
Likes: 0
From: Newark, DE
Re: E85 vs Premium For boost
I won't chime in for the technical aspects but 2 points to correct.
1. E85 is not better for the environment in the USA.
The energy balance for ethanol production from corn (usa) is 1:1.3
So you use the equivalent energy of one barrel of ethanol to produce 1.3 barrels of ethanol. This actually makes it almost pointless to produce ethanol from corn here considering all the resources could have been better spent than making corn ethanol.
In Brazil, using sugar cane, they achieve an energy balance of around 1:8. That starts becoming worthwhile but is still on the low end. Compare this to the energy balance of an onshore oil well which I've heard is around 1:200.
2. Ethanol consumption used to be thought to be more environmentally friendly to the environment than gasoline consumption. The environmental activists used to favor it.
Unfortunately, evidence has accumulated to indicate that when using corn for ethanol, the cost to the environment is actually higher than from using oil. You will notice most environmental groups have changed their information to reflect this.
This is the current and best information available as far as I am aware.
Also
3. Ethanol takes in a tremendous amount of subsidies in the USA. In fact it's not profitable without them. This money which the government taxes, would probably have found a profitable source to finance and have been spent much more effectively by the persons who actually earned it. Instead it gets wasted inefficiently and has unintended consequences such as...
4. Raising the price of food and feed. There's a limited supply of arable land and when it's all growing corn for inefficient usage it can't be used to grow a profitable crop. So all food supply is decreased while demand remains the same causing price raises. Obviously corn price also goes up.
5. Oil also has a huge number of other uses. It is used to make plastics, fertilizers, tires, paints, enamels, solvents, chemicals of all sorts. The subsidized use of oil and oil products for the inefficient corn ethanol (and there is a lot of oil used to produce ethanol) causes increased demand for oil and also raises prices in all of these areas.
IMHO follow the technical advice given here, use gas, oil, propane, hydrogen, methanol or whatever based on your technical needs and supply in your area.
1. E85 is not better for the environment in the USA.
The energy balance for ethanol production from corn (usa) is 1:1.3
So you use the equivalent energy of one barrel of ethanol to produce 1.3 barrels of ethanol. This actually makes it almost pointless to produce ethanol from corn here considering all the resources could have been better spent than making corn ethanol.
In Brazil, using sugar cane, they achieve an energy balance of around 1:8. That starts becoming worthwhile but is still on the low end. Compare this to the energy balance of an onshore oil well which I've heard is around 1:200.
2. Ethanol consumption used to be thought to be more environmentally friendly to the environment than gasoline consumption. The environmental activists used to favor it.
Unfortunately, evidence has accumulated to indicate that when using corn for ethanol, the cost to the environment is actually higher than from using oil. You will notice most environmental groups have changed their information to reflect this.
This is the current and best information available as far as I am aware.
Also
3. Ethanol takes in a tremendous amount of subsidies in the USA. In fact it's not profitable without them. This money which the government taxes, would probably have found a profitable source to finance and have been spent much more effectively by the persons who actually earned it. Instead it gets wasted inefficiently and has unintended consequences such as...
4. Raising the price of food and feed. There's a limited supply of arable land and when it's all growing corn for inefficient usage it can't be used to grow a profitable crop. So all food supply is decreased while demand remains the same causing price raises. Obviously corn price also goes up.
5. Oil also has a huge number of other uses. It is used to make plastics, fertilizers, tires, paints, enamels, solvents, chemicals of all sorts. The subsidized use of oil and oil products for the inefficient corn ethanol (and there is a lot of oil used to produce ethanol) causes increased demand for oil and also raises prices in all of these areas.
IMHO follow the technical advice given here, use gas, oil, propane, hydrogen, methanol or whatever based on your technical needs and supply in your area.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 62
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Re: E85 vs Premium For boost
No, my information is current and I hate all political parties alike.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corn_ethanol
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel
The study for energy balance was done by the IEA in 2004.
I'd like you to please reference these super efficient corn ethanol plants I've never heard of.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corn_ethanol
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel
The study for energy balance was done by the IEA in 2004.
I'd like you to please reference these super efficient corn ethanol plants I've never heard of.
Re: E85 vs Premium For boost
E85 it's good for making power, runs cooler, etc.. Plus it's better for the environment. Does anyone care about the environment? More of the money paid at the pump for E85 stays in America instead of going overseas (Brazil is a good example of this). USA could do a 180 if we reduce or stop buying foreign oil. Regardless a good tune and a good efficient motor will not be to far behind in fuel mileage for daily driving and a couple WOT pulls.
So all that aside, the purpose of this discussion is about the use of this fuel from a practical everyday and power potential, not a socio-economic or political one.
This really got off topic fast.
Thread Starter
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 599
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From: Fall River, WI, U.S
Re: E85 vs Premium For boost
Well, I've elaborated on this a few times, as Schister66 and I continually go through this debate. Yes, you can make more Power from the E85, but at a severe cost of loss of range of the car, especially if for daily driving use. The BTUs of E85 are about 30 percent lower than the average octane (about 93) to where you'll be at the pump twice as much using the same driving habits as you would with the pump gas. If the purpose is to have a bit more hp without using race gas once in a while, sure, why not. but if the turbo, management, and tuning are correct, you won't need it. Hell, it would be better to run 91 octane and methanol injection. That way you don't depend upon E85 stations all the time. I've had several gas stations literally RUN OUT OF FUEL before the next truck arrives with people waiting on E85 for their Mustangs and Camaros.
If it were me in the Colorado situation, run the 91 with methanol.
If it were me in the Colorado situation, run the 91 with methanol.
Ive heard of this methanol injection before, how much power does it produce? And how do you do it.
Thread Starter
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 599
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From: Fall River, WI, U.S
Re: E85 vs Premium For boost
as far as e85 goes, what about the thought of it helping your motor last longer. Incase the tune wasn't up to par (enough timing wasn't pulled, and maybe small lean spots here and there) it'd be much safer with e85, since it burns cooler and the octane is higher so it's also more fool proof.
or should that not even be taken into account?
or should that not even be taken into account?
Thread Starter
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 599
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From: Fall River, WI, U.S
Re: E85 vs Premium For boost
Availability is not an issue what so ever! theres a gas station 10miles from me with E85 and considering i live in the boonies its pretty much the closest gas station to me. lol
Thread Starter
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 599
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From: Fall River, WI, U.S
Re: E85 vs Premium For boost
^^^ Not to mention gas prices are on the rise again... Premium is like $3.30 here and E85 is still $2.50ish. E85 took a big plunge in sales/popularity the last few yrs when gas prices dropped back down. As gas prices continue to rise again E85 prices should only rise a little bit making the increased fuel consumption a non issue and making it a better fuel all around if you can get it conviently in your area.
Or just have the car tuned on both fuels, shouldnt cost too much more for a 2nd map.
Or just have the car tuned on both fuels, shouldnt cost too much more for a 2nd map.
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