30psi Teg

Well I dynoed the car today and on cam2 fuel I made like 332 HP ( i know this graph is for 305, but all the graphs looked the same) Anyway it seems to start out good as you can see in the graph but then falls off. Car runs clean all the way through and as far as I know the clutch isnt slipping. HIghest I could hit on 18psi is 332 then we switched fuel and I think what the shop had was shitty b/c my HP dropped almost 30 when we switched out fuel.

Setup:
B18A 9.2:1 ross pistons
LS head ported out, 1mm oversized ferrea valves and crower S&R (stock cams but have crower stg 2)
Turbo: SC 61 w/to4s compressor 69trim (.63 ex a/r)
3" DP only
boost running between 18-19psi
haltech E6x ecu
timing starts at 31 and runs down to about 24-25 at 18psi

This graph is just to show what the car was doing, all the graphs looked similar this is the only one I had though. I think that fuel they had was **** and for some reason the car started leaning out top end but it was fine before the fuel switch and the power was still the same, go up dop off then back up again then down.

Anyone have any ideas really would like the advice of some of the tuners on here.


thanks for any help

FredoSP

those #'s look very low for that turbo on that much boost, im not a tuner, but I think something is up.

Edit, what is your whole setup? Maybe could the injectors be maxed out? More info needed

Mr.DC2TurBo

that seems really low for a big *** turbo on 18psi w/ race gas.

IN VTEC

iTrader: (3)

It's a stock cammed motor?

You can see the efficiency drop off at higher rpm's as the AFR's come up a little and the torque curve drop. I'm by no means an expert, but maybe that's why.

I'm guessing that 24 degrees of total timing isn't too much on race gas...I dunno....I never work with it.

Edit: Nevermind....I can't read a frikkin' AFR curve to save my life. Completely ignore what I said.


Modified by IN VTEC at 5:56 PM 3/30/2004

Nextelbuddy

i know how you feel. i made 318 to the wheels @ 20 psi with with w t3/t4 e turbo

i think it has to do with such low compression... i dropped from stock to 9:1 when i was at stock compression i amde 326 @ 12 psi now i am only making 318 @ 20 psi yuck.. i dont know what else to do but to upgradde turbo to somethign bigger i guess

does dropping compression to 9:1 make that much power loss????

FredoSP

what is the compression of this motor (not the pistons) I think that will rule out somethings. Also, have you ever had a leakdown test done to the motor?

Darin D.

pull some fuel out between 5500-7500...it doesn't need to be that rich. Especially on race gas. If you're running C16 you need to be in the 12.5-12.8:1 range. That's whats killing your power. If you're running pump gas you can usually get away with lower air fuel ratios, but anything below 11:1 will really kill your power output.


Modified by Willis at 6:31 PM 3/30/2004

B18bEK

#'s seem low and thats a whack curve

racinskittle

First off your running fairly rich. A A/F of about 12:1 is ideal....your seeps into the 10's. If you lean it out you'll make some better numbers there Just curious what kind of plugs are you running? Did you try moving up the timing a little?

30psi Teg

I have plenty of fuel thats not a problem I have 1100cc's.

Stock cams maybe the problem but I just dont think so.

Fuel not the problem, as I stated we had a great air fuel to start with around a 11.5 but then this shop gave us this gas (they were out of C-16) and it started runnin like **** and air fuel got wierd.

It starts making really good power by 5500 rpm then just drops and bairly rises. I just dont get it. No matter what we did add/remove fuel, add/remove timing it still had this uglyness up top and if you look the thing starts running out around 7600rpm.

The only other problem I can think of is that sometimes the spark likes to jump to the base of the threads and not the elctrode (but these pulls were clean no missing). Anyone know if the spark is jumping but still burning the fuel if it would cause a power loss.

Mase

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Willis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">pull some fuel out between 5500-7500...it doesn't need to be that rich. Especially on race gas. If you're running C16 you need to be in the 12.5-12.8:1 range. That's whats killing your power. If you're running pump gas you can usually get away with lower air fuel ratios, but anything below 11:1 will really kill your power output.


Modified by Willis at 6:31 PM 3/30/2004</TD></TR></TABLE>


no way, you need to have a solid 11.8-12.0 straight line regardless of pump or race.


you're afr line sucks, you want a straight line.

CaptainMorgan

that seems ok. At 18 psi i am about 355whp. So your not that far from it. But the biggest question of all is, why are you reving so high on a LS motor. Your ranning way to rich. I don't even hit 12.5:1 untill 4000 rpm Remember this. "Boost is free, but fuel isn't."

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 30psi Teg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
It starts making really good power by 5500 rpm then just drops and bairly rises. I just dont get it. No matter what we did add/remove fuel, add/remove timing it still had this uglyness up top and if you look the thing starts running out around 7600rpm.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

This is normal for an LS. The head just can't flow enough air/fuel in, then out. There is to much back pressure from the turbo manifold to the head. A lot of LS doesn't this, but i haven't seen one where the power comes back up. MOst LS hit their peak and just fall fast after that. SO be happy with it. Try leaning out the motor.

ahobbs

that's really fat for c16

30psi Teg

Mase: like I said though, earlier runs were solid straight lines right around 11.8 or so like you say. They gave me this shitty gas and tune went to **** I am mainly wanting ideas on why the power is doing what its doing.

captainmorgan: But on a fully built head?

JDogg

so it was fine with your gas, then you put in some gas from the shop and it started being retarded........

ever think of getting some different gas?

you are deffinatly too rich.... and id try adding a little timing if that dip dosnt go away when you take out the fuel..

30psi Teg

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JDogg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">so it was fine with your gas, then you put in some gas from the shop and it started being retarded........

ever think of getting some different gas?

you are deffinatly too rich.... and id try adding a little timing if that dip dosnt go away when you take out the fuel..</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah I m getting rid of the **** gas they gave me but I was out of time and had no chance to switch gas back. My main concearn is that damn dip and you say add timing I am just a little leary of adding timing as it is already at 25-26 deg. adv. at 18psi and starts about 36 at 0 in.hg.

Flr Power

Then you probably have to much timing. Lean it out to 11.5 past 4000 rpm and decrease timing at the same time before you blow it.

Straight line rules...

JDogg

normally an abnormal dip in power is caused by not enough timing..

can the haltec monitor knock? the graph looks pretty smooth so i dont believe you are getting into detonation.

have you synced the timing with a timing light?

Mr.DC2TurBo

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CaptainMorgan &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">that seems ok. At 18 psi i am about 355whp. So your not that far from it. But the biggest question of all is, why are you reving so high on a LS motor. Your ranning way to rich. I don't even hit 12.5:1 untill 4000 rpm Remember this. "Boost is free, but fuel isn't."



This is normal for an LS. The head just can't flow enough air/fuel in, then out. There is to much back pressure from the turbo manifold to the head. A lot of LS doesn't this, but i haven't seen one where the power comes back up. MOst LS hit their peak and just fall fast after that. SO be happy with it. Try leaning out the motor. </TD></TR></TABLE>


His head is pnp so the excuse of the head cant flow shouldnt be the problem and that's the reason for him being able to rev to 8500. His setup should of gotten him ~350hp at that psi level. I say do a compression test and see where you stand from there.

Cyphear

good luck with that, if good gas would give you 30WHP and i would guess tuning the a/f ratio better would give you 40 or 50WHP, that would put you around 380, so i wouldn't be too concerned about anything major wrong with your car. I definiltly think you should be running around 17 degrees or so of total timng at full boost, but i'm not familiar with your setup.

Blaze45

Lower compression makes less power. Higher compression makes more power, more BTUs forcing the pistion down cause of the hotter explosion. So with lower compression you will make about the same power with more boost vs higher with less boost, like nextelbuddy did. This is just what I have read and evaluated from looking at peoples setups and power output #s. I would try better gas, then go from there.

just my 0.02 cents.

Blaze

Johnyquest

Not totally helpful, but why didn't you up the boost if you were on race gas? It would have been nice to see a 25-30psi pull... and might have explained some things.

That's low torque, especially for an LS. I see why your pissed. I pulled 180ft lbs from 4k rpm to near redline on my stockblock d16z6 w/ a .42/.48 t3... so yeah, somthings def up... but you knew that.

Matt

CaptainMorgan

Here is something to think about. What Oct is your gas and theirs.

Plugs for your gas was perfect.
Then you when went with different Oct and your pluges are either too cold or to hot, since race gas is slower at burning. Also you plugs could have taken a dump on you right after that last ran, before you switch the gas.

On my car we ran up to 12 psi on pump gas with stock pluges (step 6 i think). When we went to race gas we switch to step 9 pluges at 23 psi

Cyphear

heres someone with a similar setup making 408 @ 17 psi. btw; it has beeen discussed here many times as you probably know, so i wont argue my case, but you low compression isn't hurting you.

This guy was even running as rich as ~11:1 at full boost. I'm confused why you aren't making this kinda power.
http://www.ecimulti.org/uberda...d=345

Vtec92Civic

yeah my friend is using a Turbonetics t3/t4 50 trim .63 ar I believe and at 14psi he is making 275whp 235wtq on a D16z6 motor . . . you should be making way more power then what you are making at 24psi