will thi setup work direct with an apexi power fc on a b18c?

 

Great write up. I had a buddy just asking about this.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Valjoker &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> will thi setup work direct with an apexi power fc on a b18c?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Unfortunately no; the FC runs off a very close to stock ECU and only has one coil driver for the Honda applications.

 

OK I set mine up this weekend and it idles ok. When I drive it, it seems like the timing is off (retarded). I tried my timing gun and it dosen't light up. I tried the light on my nissan that has plug wires and it works fine.

So my question is how do I set timing ?

I am runing 30-1000 wasted spark, CBR coils, and the C2DI.

 

you have to use a 2 stroke timming light. All of your settings should be like i have posted above. set your timming at idle then check it at 4000 rpm if it is off at 4000 then you need to change the pickup delay comp setting.

 

Hall Effects anit really the champ in it's game it produces a very low signal level, but the main advantage is its immune to dirt, dust, and water.

That's why OEM use them.

There's also the <FONT COLOR="red">Optical</FONT> trigger sensor. I would enclose this in a case like a timing belt, if I were to use this.

The speed of a magnetic field disruption vs a light beam being blocked .

After hearing this which would your perference be?

 

Are you really going to try this again? Last post about hall sensors you tried to pull the optical card and then realized you didn't really know what you were talking about, and aparantely still don't. For one, oem's rarely use hall sensors, most use magnetic sensors. Magnetic sensors produce a very low signal level, not hall sensors. Hall sensors and optical sensors produce the same square wave waveform. You talk about how much better an optical sensor is, but I really don't think you have a clue. Build an optical setup for a honda and then talk about why it's better...

 

I am selling an AEM 4 channel C2di if anybody is interested, click the link in my sig for the ebay listing. Also, have 4 MSD blaster SS coils for sale. Have a set of honda cbr coils with the plug harness as well that I'm looking to get rid of, the boot length is perfect for a B16 head. We have been using the Chrysler 300m coils that are popular in the DSM's as you have a wider range of spark plugs to choose from besides the very expensive IK24's that are most commonly used with the CBR coils.

Tony, thanks again for the hall effect sensor setup that you sold us at the Nopi event in St. Louis. Once I can get everything setup in the AEM, I know we won't have the high rpm problems we were having with the dizzy.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tony1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Are you really going to try this again? Last post about hall sensors you tried to pull the optical card and then realized you didn't really know what you were talking about, and aparantely still don't. For one, oem's rarely use hall sensors, most use magnetic sensors. Magnetic sensors produce a very low signal level, not hall sensors. Hall sensors and optical sensors produce the same square wave waveform. You talk about how much better an optical sensor is, but I really don't think you have a clue. Build an optical setup for a honda and then talk about why it's better...</TD></TR></TABLE>

Excuse me? Yes they do produce a square wave form but this doesn't mean that there equal in reality how can you say something triggers faster than light? You can't.

Hall effect does produce a low signal level this is a fact, I wont continue on it.

''OEM rarley use hall sensors'' but the fact is that they do.

I know the Audi S4 used a Hall effect for a speed sensor.

BMW is another.

Some years Nissan sentra used an optical sensor.

Some OEM manufacturers used them in anti lock braking systems.

Some cars use them for ride height sensors.

Thats enough.


You want to bust someone ***** about what they know? I didn't think'll you'd go that low especially when I said I was wrong in that other thread, because I was thinking of the wrong magnetic sensor. I dont go recommending coils I dont know about, since you want to get on that subject.

 

So the low signal level on a hall sensor that you speak of, is this an output signal?

The reason many manufacturers don't use hall sensors is because they're much more sensitive to heat and don't last as long as mag sensors.

Most OEM manufacturers use mag sensors for cam, crank, abs, etc. Sure there are different types that some oems use, but MOST use mag sensors.

If optical sensors were so great, don't you think more oems, and performance companies would use them? They don't seem to be too popular, must not be that much more accurate.

On the coils, what i know is that they work, and i know this first hand. Why waste time looking for specs that don't matter to me. They work better than any coil i've ever used, that's enough to convince me. I don't need any specs. If you demand specs, then you find them...

 

I hope this tread wont get lock any time soon based on how far we have come off topic. But if everyone else is doing it , I will too. Not that anyone on here necessarly wants to he me bitch, but.
I am simply amazed at how many people run AEM electronics in their cars! You guys ever take an aem apart and look inside? Its junk, and not even made by them. I have delt with several customers who have come to the shop i work for with blown up AEM electronics, and i have personally seen the AEM boxes smoke up. However with the laws of averages on the consumers side, meaning, Aem sells probably 15,000 cdi and EMS products a year and if 4000 blow up or fail its still a pretty good average. Its the same with MSD Ignition systems. Nascar runs Hand built, hand checked, hand tested and hand deliverd MSD ignition systems. But guess what else, Nascar cars run two of them, with a toggle switch in between so if one fails during the race they can get back in the race with a flip of a switch. Which means even with this level of quality control at MSD, Nascar cars still see ignition failure on a regular enough basis to justify installing 2 seperate systems in the car. Wow. sound like junk number 2. I think the guys at Full Race said it best, "The bitterness of poor quality remains long after, the low price has been forgotten." Extreamly true!!
Now on to systems that are worth a damn. Autronic, i cant say enough about it. they even have PNP boards just like Hondata and AEM no wiring necessary people. Autronic's R500 is another extreamly well made product, I dont even have enough time to tell you all the good things about it. Motec, everything about it is good, but i have less experience with motec than autronic. M&W ignitions extreamly well built, extreamly reliable. And yet people buy medocre stuff, $10,000 race motor in a street car and they buy a power fc, SAFC, or AEM engine managment to run the damn thing??? i mean come on here people, wake up.

 

the only oem i can think of that uses optical pickups is nissan, everyone else uses mag pickups.. bmw, mercedes, etc, etc, etc, etc... i researched all the oems when i was looking for something to replace the stock honda mag pickups

the mercury coils have a very low primary resistance (under 0.01 ohms if i remember right) this means more of the current coming from the cdi goes to producing a spark. cbr coils are around 0.1 ohms

as for your fried ems's.... 95% of fried ems's i have see were the result of crappy wiring or someone clicking some **** that they didnt know enough about ( ie using coil 4 on a 30-1010, instant smoke) the cdi's however, i have seen a **** ton just die for no reason.. no better than a dis4 though, 1/2 the dis4's i have seen fried themselves as well.

go buy a brand new obd1 ecu from honda... those look about 20 times worse than any ems i have seen. and what electronics company actually builds their own boards..??? they are all made in tiwan

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tony1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So the low signal level on a hall sensor that you speak of, is this an output signal?

Yes

The reason many manufacturers don't use hall sensors is because they're much more sensitive to heat and don't last as long as mag sensors.

Most OEM manufacturers use mag sensors for cam, crank, abs, etc. Sure there are different types that some oems use, but MOST use mag sensors.

If optical sensors were so great, don't you think more oems, and performance companies would use them? They don't seem to be too popular, must not be that much more accurate.

Cost associated with using them. An Optical sensor led clear expoxy tolerate heat well, but you must keep it awy from dirt, water and other light interference, this is why it isn't popular.

As for companies MegaSquirt, Del Teq, Crane cams, Motec and more associate themselves with it.

On the coils, what i know is that they work, and i know this first hand. Why waste time looking for specs that don't matter to me. They work better than any coil i've ever used, that's enough to convince me. I don't need any specs. If you demand specs, then you find them... w/e hey they may work for your drag racing apps a few seconds but what about continuous use? I know that those mercury marine guys use alot of MSD parts, for continous use. On the other hand some these are marine v8's that dont even rev as high as we do and there not even busting there ignition asses! 4600-5000 RPMS.


</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

The output signal from a hall sensor is a square wave output, and the voltage is the same as you put in. Picture it as a really fast relay. On and off. 12v in, 12v out. How you see that as a low signal level is beyond me.

Now a mag sensor on the other hand, at low rpm will have signals in the millivolt range, hence the reason they're so succeptable to noise.

Your comment on the coils sounds like it came from someone as msd, so I take that for what it's worth...

As far as duration with those coils, they're oem boat coils, I imagine they'll work for a little more than a couple minutes at a time. I can't imagine mercury using a coil that would leave you stuck out in the water if you didn't shut off the boat and let the coils cool down.

"On the other hand some these are marine v8's that dont even rev as high as we do and there not even busting there ignition asses! 4600-5000 RPMS."

If you can translate that to english for me then i'll comment on it. I don't speak whatever that is.

On the optical sensors, i've got motec's catalog sitting right in front of me, and while i see about 6 or 7 different hall sensors and 4 or 5 mag sensors, i see no optical sensors available and no mention of them at all. I know they exist and how they work, but I don't think they are all you think they are...

 

As usual, Tony is dead on. Haha.

Opticals are great, until you get into an environment with dust, dirt or oil. I can think of something that has all three of the above, and quite a bit of it. It might be a car.

The cars mentioned above (S4, BMW's) use VR sensors (mag) for crank wheel signals and a hall sensor for the cam. Main reason there is longevity of the mag sensor in the oily/hot crank case. Even an inductive trigger hall sensor would work there, if not for the heat. They use hall on the cam due to better conditions, mostly lack of heat and oil.

VR sensors are great, but are VERY suseptible to noise, as Tony's stated. You have to run shielded wire, and as far from your ignition system's power side as you can. Don't forget to only ground the shield at the ECU/ignition box and not at the sensor/block.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MidShipCivic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Excuse me? Yes they do produce a square wave form but this doesn't mean that there equal in reality how can you say something triggers faster than light? You can't.

Hall effect does produce a low signal level this is a fact, I wont continue on it.

''OEM rarley use hall sensors'' but the fact is that they do.

I know the Audi S4 used a Hall effect for a speed sensor.

BMW is another.

Some years Nissan sentra used an optical sensor.

Some OEM manufacturers used them in anti lock braking systems.

Some cars use them for ride height sensors.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Optical's are accurate, but they are not too reliable in comparison to both mag and hall effect pickups though. The light collector has a limited lifespan, and especially in harsh enviromnents, this lifespan is shortened. The light generator (LED's) are sensitive to heat, vibration and has a set hours of operation time as well.

The main benefit of optical is the fast response time. This response however, is not too practical in our current engines. A regular mag pickup and hall effect sensors have a certain delay time (depending on sensor), but this delay is so short that it will not affect the engine's timing unless you run the engine beyond who knows how high of an RPM (probably 40000+ RPM I guess). Optical is probably useful for uber-fast measurements, perhaps like turbocharger speed or whatnot.

Opticals are great, but so great that it's advantages are rendered useless in most automobile engines. The benefits do not outweigh the downfalls though (complexity, price and reliability), so it is a complete waste of time to even think about such system on our DIY/modded Hondas. And to have a well running engine, last thing you need is a failing crank/cam trigger sensor.

To avoid confusion:

Mag pickups generate their own voltage. Like the knock sensors. The slower the pickup speed, the lesser the voltage. The more heat, the less strength from the magnet and the lesser the voltage. Mags are the ones that produce a weak signal.

Hall Effect are digital... ON or OFF. Each signal is either 5v or 12v depending on the power source of the sensor. Can't be weak.. every signal is the same strength.

Optical produces the same strength and same type of signal as a Hall effect sensor.

Believe it or not, most cars use Mag pickups. All Honda B-series, all Toyotas. I think that's enough cars already...LOL It is the newer vehicles which have start to switch over to Hall effect sensors. I wonder why? (read Tony1's post again)

 

Nice Writeup

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tony1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The output signal from a hall sensor is a square wave output, and the voltage is the same as you put in. Picture it as a really fast relay. On and off. 12v in, 12v out. How you see that as a low signal level is beyond me.

Now a mag sensor on the other hand, at low rpm will have signals in the millivolt range, hence the reason they're so succeptable to noise.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Tony is absolutely right. How you see that as a low signal level is beyond me also!!

All i ever use is hall effect sensors as i've been having misfire issues with mag sensor's. Especially on high revving race engines...
Mag sensor's voltage varies with rpm, are noisy, and flat out suck.

Hall effects just straight out work everytime. No need to worry about picking up noise as there very well protected.

And Mercury Marine Coils are some bad *** coils. I've used them on a number of cars with good success. Ex. Rotary on meth with .6 lambda a/f, over 50psi, and no misfires. That should tell you something.

Again as tony stated don't try to use them on MSD's as they will burn out instantly. Mercury Marine coils have a very low resistance .01 ohms. Most ignition boxes can't handle that. I would only use Autronic/ M&W ignitions as they seem to be the most powerful/reliable systems out there.

 

I would like to thank tony1 for his help with de-bugging the wasted spark system that I'm running on my B16 (overkill I know, but I love playing).

Original request for help: "I'm having a problem with misfires on a B16 running a standalone management
system and wasted spark. I agree with you saying "Going with individual
coils will not solve anything if the problem is on the input side". I have
done dataloging on the management system and have found RPM spikes in the
data (since you can only log every portion of a second it means you might
miss a lot of data). Some of these are as high as 17000RPM. Since I believe
that my problem is with "noise" in the RPM pickup I was wondering if you
know of a more stable method of picking up the RPM? Should I use Hall-Effect
and if so can you point me in the right direction?"

Once I had the scope on I could see the problem I was experiancing was with an inverted signal from the home position sensor. Now she revs to 10000RPM with no problem

 

 

i have a question would the secu gold zdyne support individual coils?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 2kTeg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i have a question would the secu gold zdyne support individual coils?</TD></TR></TABLE>

i do not think so, zdyne is a conversion of a stock ecu which only has one coil output.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by b18ccivics &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">zdyne is a conversion of a stock ecu which only has one coil output.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Correct, zdyne will not work.

 

With this set up...Do you still have to use the distb..And all the sensors, thats what im trying to get rid of now..Cause i need a new distrb id rather do th ecop setup...Thanks juet let me know....

 

You don't have to use the distributor and could go with the hall effect trigger setup off of the cam gear that Tony mentioned. You could also retain the distributor for the cam and crank pickup if you like and still do the COP conversion.