d 16 turbo setup help needed
06-03-2014, 04:57 PM
#1
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d 16 turbo setup help needed
What i have now
92 civic sedan
H22a1
What I plan on doing
d16 z6
500cc injectors
victor x intake
stage 2 turbo cam
eagle rods and pistons
57 trim turbo
lsd diff
91 octane
goal is 500ish hp
my questions are if i have this setup would it be possible to keep my ac. If so do i need to get a special manifold. Also would i need to sleeve the block. (darton sleeves).
Im really into sleepers i plan on putting the waste gate and blow-off valve into the exhaust.
please let me know any thing that i may have forgot.
92 civic sedan
H22a1
What I plan on doing
d16 z6
500cc injectors
victor x intake
stage 2 turbo cam
eagle rods and pistons
57 trim turbo
lsd diff
91 octane
goal is 500ish hp
my questions are if i have this setup would it be possible to keep my ac. If so do i need to get a special manifold. Also would i need to sleeve the block. (darton sleeves).
Im really into sleepers i plan on putting the waste gate and blow-off valve into the exhaust.
please let me know any thing that i may have forgot.
06-03-2014, 05:10 PM
#4
Re: d 16 turbo setup help needed
You're going from an already-swapped, superior motor to a far-inferior shitbox. Don't do that. Stick with the H22. Most H22 swaps involve the chassis being heavily modified, so it won't be a simple "drop the Z6 back in and go" swap.
500cc/min injectors aren't going to safely get you 500 WHP. Realistically, you should be looking in the 750-1000+cc/min range.
"stage 2" means nothing. There are a lot of companies out there that make cams.
Eagle doesn't make pistons.
Assuming you're talking about a Garrett T3T04E 57 trim, I could be wrong on this, but I think you're going to be pushing it for 500 BHP. Think a little bigger.
An LSD is always a good idea, but make sure you get a good one.
The kind of manifold you'd need to keep air conditioning is going to limit your power at that range, and even if you did make it work, heat soak is going to make your air con essentially worthless.
You technically won't need to sleeve the block, but not sleeving it for those power levels would be begging to destroy a motor.
WG and BOV into the exhaust is called recirculation. It's easy. A lot of people do it. It also robs power.
500cc/min injectors aren't going to safely get you 500 WHP. Realistically, you should be looking in the 750-1000+cc/min range.
"stage 2" means nothing. There are a lot of companies out there that make cams.
Eagle doesn't make pistons.
Assuming you're talking about a Garrett T3T04E 57 trim, I could be wrong on this, but I think you're going to be pushing it for 500 BHP. Think a little bigger.
An LSD is always a good idea, but make sure you get a good one.
The kind of manifold you'd need to keep air conditioning is going to limit your power at that range, and even if you did make it work, heat soak is going to make your air con essentially worthless.
You technically won't need to sleeve the block, but not sleeving it for those power levels would be begging to destroy a motor.
WG and BOV into the exhaust is called recirculation. It's easy. A lot of people do it. It also robs power.
06-03-2014, 07:32 PM
#5
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Re: d 16 turbo setup help needed
Any t3/t04e turbo won't make 500hp.
you need something in the 3076 area or bigger. the precision 5858 would fit the bill without breaking the bank.
and you can't plumb the blow off valve into the exhaust system... that wouldn't even remotely begin to work.
and I agree don't ditch the h22. The h series motor is far superior and has a greater power and torque potential, something a street car desperately needs.... more torque. even on stock internals it would produce so much power over the sohc motor.
not to mention the chassis modifications needed. you have to convert from the f/h series shifter cables back to a shift rod, different mounts, axles, wiring harness, radiator hoses (potentially a radiator as well) in addition to all of the usual ****.
you need something in the 3076 area or bigger. the precision 5858 would fit the bill without breaking the bank.
and you can't plumb the blow off valve into the exhaust system... that wouldn't even remotely begin to work.
and I agree don't ditch the h22. The h series motor is far superior and has a greater power and torque potential, something a street car desperately needs.... more torque. even on stock internals it would produce so much power over the sohc motor.
not to mention the chassis modifications needed. you have to convert from the f/h series shifter cables back to a shift rod, different mounts, axles, wiring harness, radiator hoses (potentially a radiator as well) in addition to all of the usual ****.
06-03-2014, 09:29 PM
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Re: d 16 turbo setup help needed
the h22 is a heavy motor which in turn creates a lot of push, not good for cornering.
my bad brian crower cam and pistons.
my bad brian crower cam and pistons.
06-03-2014, 09:33 PM
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Re: d 16 turbo setup help needed
BOV into the exhaust is called recirculation. It's easy. A lot of people do it. It also robs power
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06-03-2014, 10:32 PM
#8
Re: d 16 turbo setup help needed
Backpressure and air flow. It just does. It's been proven on the dyno.
Sacrificing half a liter of displacement just for a little bit of weight loss is stupid. Learn how to transfer the weight, become a better driver, and don't use your parts as a crutch. Also, the H series swap involves seriously chopping up the chassis. If you want a D series, go buy a new shell.
Sacrificing half a liter of displacement just for a little bit of weight loss is stupid. Learn how to transfer the weight, become a better driver, and don't use your parts as a crutch. Also, the H series swap involves seriously chopping up the chassis. If you want a D series, go buy a new shell.
06-03-2014, 10:47 PM
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Re: d 16 turbo setup help needed
You can't plumb a blow off valve into an exhaust system... that makes no sense.
you can plumb it to the turbo air intake, that's recirculation.
recirculated wastegates do cause a slight power decrease due to the turbulent flow of exhaust gasses around the area where the wastegate dump merges with the downpipe. this is mostly due to poor designs such as letting the wastegate pipe meet the exhaust at a sudden sharp angle, or allow it to enter too close to the turbine housing.
the wastegate needs to merge at a shallow angle with the rest of the exhaust gasses using the teardrop method, it also needs to be about 18" from the turbine outlet to give the gasses exiting the turbine and wastegate time to slow down and flow smoothly.
on a test we did going from a poorly designed wastegate recirculation system to an open dump with a properly designed and long enough dump tube picked up 30hp.
the way to tell if your dump tube is long enough is make it longer than it needs to be at first, coat it with oil, do a 4th gear wot pull on a dyno. wherever the oil stopped burning off of the dump tube is where you need to cut. that's the easiest way to determine proper dump tube length.
you can plumb it to the turbo air intake, that's recirculation.
recirculated wastegates do cause a slight power decrease due to the turbulent flow of exhaust gasses around the area where the wastegate dump merges with the downpipe. this is mostly due to poor designs such as letting the wastegate pipe meet the exhaust at a sudden sharp angle, or allow it to enter too close to the turbine housing.
the wastegate needs to merge at a shallow angle with the rest of the exhaust gasses using the teardrop method, it also needs to be about 18" from the turbine outlet to give the gasses exiting the turbine and wastegate time to slow down and flow smoothly.
on a test we did going from a poorly designed wastegate recirculation system to an open dump with a properly designed and long enough dump tube picked up 30hp.
the way to tell if your dump tube is long enough is make it longer than it needs to be at first, coat it with oil, do a 4th gear wot pull on a dyno. wherever the oil stopped burning off of the dump tube is where you need to cut. that's the easiest way to determine proper dump tube length.
06-03-2014, 11:24 PM
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Re: d 16 turbo setup help needed
I don't blame you lol.
I can't remember who came up with the oil idea initially but it's worke well for me with the setups I've built for myself and others. it's also worked well for pretty much anyone who tried it
however on setups where there is a space limit or the wastegate is low in the engine bay then sometimes it's hard to make the dumptube(s) long enough.
like on SR20DETs, vg30s, 350/370zs, r35s, low placement setups like v8s, remote mounted turbos (still a stupid idea IMO) or any other setup where the wastegate is mounted low, wastegate placement on the manifold is weird, or there isn't enough space for a dumptube of considerable length.
I can't remember who came up with the oil idea initially but it's worke well for me with the setups I've built for myself and others. it's also worked well for pretty much anyone who tried it
however on setups where there is a space limit or the wastegate is low in the engine bay then sometimes it's hard to make the dumptube(s) long enough.
like on SR20DETs, vg30s, 350/370zs, r35s, low placement setups like v8s, remote mounted turbos (still a stupid idea IMO) or any other setup where the wastegate is mounted low, wastegate placement on the manifold is weird, or there isn't enough space for a dumptube of considerable length.
06-05-2014, 09:08 AM
#12
Re: d 16 turbo setup help needed
replace the H22 for a d16........ i wouldnt even dream this mod.
its like installing b18c to a ferrari FXX
Last edited by turbomaniac; 06-05-2014 at 09:33 PM.
06-05-2014, 10:46 AM
#13
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Re: d 16 turbo setup help needed
The h22 has such a huge power output advantage over the d16 which should be enough to make anyone not want to downgrade to the d16, when you consider the much higher torque output of the h22 that would really convince everyone that this swap is a horrible idea.
06-10-2014, 03:12 PM
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Re: d 16 turbo setup help needed
My reason for going down to a d- series
1. where I am located I can find parts 100 easier for them. as of now if i need anything i have to wait a week.
2. d-series are a rev happy motor
3 I want to keep the overall weight down as much as possible.
I have made some decision changes.
Scraping the idea of having AC.
I plan on using JE pistons, brian crower rods. and a stage 2 turbo cower cam.
1000cc injectors
GEM turbo intake
I wanted to run E85 but seeing there are only two stations within a 150 mile range, i was thinking a aviation fuel
hon-data computer not sure which one ( maybe someone here is more knowledgeable on this)
precision 5858
Would it be better to use a cast manifold or something else?
1. where I am located I can find parts 100 easier for them. as of now if i need anything i have to wait a week.
2. d-series are a rev happy motor
3 I want to keep the overall weight down as much as possible.
I have made some decision changes.
Scraping the idea of having AC.
I plan on using JE pistons, brian crower rods. and a stage 2 turbo cower cam.
1000cc injectors
GEM turbo intake
I wanted to run E85 but seeing there are only two stations within a 150 mile range, i was thinking a aviation fuel
hon-data computer not sure which one ( maybe someone here is more knowledgeable on this)
precision 5858
Would it be better to use a cast manifold or something else?
06-10-2014, 03:27 PM
#15
Re: d 16 turbo setup help needed
.
the way to tell if your dump tube is long enough is make it longer than it needs to be at first, coat it with oil, do a 4th gear wot pull on a dyno. wherever the oil stopped burning off of the dump tube is where you need to cut. that's the easiest way to determine proper dump tube length.
the way to tell if your dump tube is long enough is make it longer than it needs to be at first, coat it with oil, do a 4th gear wot pull on a dyno. wherever the oil stopped burning off of the dump tube is where you need to cut. that's the easiest way to determine proper dump tube length.
Obviously a dyno is a tell all for what works best...
06-10-2014, 05:05 PM
#16
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Re: d 16 turbo setup help needed
The exhaust is very hot. under long wot pulls the manifold, turbine housing, dump tube, wastegate, and downpipe all glow bright orange, that's well over 1800F...
for the actual exhaust system it isn't useful since the gasses have cooled and slowed down significantly by the time they exit the exhaust, dump tubes are entirely different, exhaust gasses move rapidly through the pipe given the short distances (compared to a full length exhaust) and little restriction within the tube itself. with a dump tube that's too short reversion will actually draw fresh air into the turbo manifold, this results in premature cooling of the exhaust gasses pre turbine which causes slower response, skewed air fuel readings. and skewed egt readings. same concept as why wideband readings are off if the sensor is placed near the end of an open pipe.. reversion draws fresh air in skewing readings.
since there's very little backpressure within the dump tube having a long length doesn't degrade performance. it also routes exhaust gasses out of the engine bay that could be ingested by the turbo, diluting the fresh air/fuel charge, causing an emissions increase, loss of power, loss of efficiency, etc
air does funny things sometimes. why do you think there's carbon on the back of your car. the air currents curl around the back of the car causing the air to tumble and throw the exhaust fumes against the car. the same thing happens within the engine bay at certain speeds, there's a tumble/swirl effect that basically recycles air within the compartment. if your dump tube is too short or doesn't terminate properly then you'll end up circulating exhaust fumes within the engine bay causing the turbo to ultimately ingest them.
for the actual exhaust system it isn't useful since the gasses have cooled and slowed down significantly by the time they exit the exhaust, dump tubes are entirely different, exhaust gasses move rapidly through the pipe given the short distances (compared to a full length exhaust) and little restriction within the tube itself. with a dump tube that's too short reversion will actually draw fresh air into the turbo manifold, this results in premature cooling of the exhaust gasses pre turbine which causes slower response, skewed air fuel readings. and skewed egt readings. same concept as why wideband readings are off if the sensor is placed near the end of an open pipe.. reversion draws fresh air in skewing readings.
since there's very little backpressure within the dump tube having a long length doesn't degrade performance. it also routes exhaust gasses out of the engine bay that could be ingested by the turbo, diluting the fresh air/fuel charge, causing an emissions increase, loss of power, loss of efficiency, etc
air does funny things sometimes. why do you think there's carbon on the back of your car. the air currents curl around the back of the car causing the air to tumble and throw the exhaust fumes against the car. the same thing happens within the engine bay at certain speeds, there's a tumble/swirl effect that basically recycles air within the compartment. if your dump tube is too short or doesn't terminate properly then you'll end up circulating exhaust fumes within the engine bay causing the turbo to ultimately ingest them.
06-10-2014, 06:23 PM
#17
Re: d 16 turbo setup help needed
with a dump tube that's too short reversion will actually draw fresh air into the turbo manifold, this results in premature cooling of the exhaust gasses pre turbine which causes slower response, skewed air fuel readings. and skewed egt readings. same concept as why wideband readings are off if the sensor is placed near the end of an open pipe.. reversion draws fresh air in skewing readings.
This I am aware of, but how does air get sucked into a wastegate dumptube (or even a down pipe off of the exh housing influencing EGT/AFR ect because it also has to get past the turbine wheel which most of the time is actively expelling exh gases) and into a manifold?
If the external WG (even internal) is doing it's job it shouldn't be open unless its bleeding exhaust to control the turbine. Correct me if I am wrong? Some crack open a bit early but...
Or were you referring to fumes being sucked in via turbo inlet? I've totally seen that happen.
I am still curious as to how the oil trick denotes where the dump tube should end?
How much does this relate to exhaust back pressure on higher powered engines? I remeber back in the day a lot of the guys making big power were checking their back pressure via gauge of some sort....
All this talk of turbos... making me want to get back into the game...
Sorry for the thread jack btw. Actually no, sorry not sorry, this is decent discussion lol.
06-10-2014, 06:35 PM
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Re: d 16 turbo setup help needed
What's your plan to "undo" hacking done to get the shifter in that car? D-series? Not even B-series? Having run an H-powered Prelude and now stuck with a D-powered Civic (albeit boosted), I would never go backwards like that.
And this saving weight argument is really not all that solid either.
How you thought for one hot second that setup was going to net you 500hp is absolutely beyond me.
And this saving weight argument is really not all that solid either.
How you thought for one hot second that setup was going to net you 500hp is absolutely beyond me.
06-10-2014, 07:06 PM
#19
Re: d 16 turbo setup help needed
It doesn't work like that. You can't just pull an H out and drop a D back in. I've already told you this, OP - you need to listen. Also, you don't have easy access to E85, so you're going to run AvGas? Do you even know what AvGas is, how much it costs, or what you're getting involved in trying to run it?
Either you haven't really thought this out, or you're just high, because those are two massive, glaring holes in what you want to do.
Either you haven't really thought this out, or you're just high, because those are two massive, glaring holes in what you want to do.
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