reasons LS trannys kick ***:

1)long gears create a smooth feel while cruising around town(good for grandma)
2)nice long 5th gear to keep RPM's low while cruising on the highway
3)puts more load on motor and allows the turbo to spool up while u r still in gear(???) good?

things u have to think about when deciding on a tranny:

1)where does your car make its power 5k-8k? 7-9k?
2)where is your torque peak?
3)where is your tranny gonna land your RPM's after each shift?
4)what size wheels you are running?
5)do u care about top speed?
6)do u race highway or 1/4?
7)what app. trap speeds does your car pull?

fact- short gears allow u to accelerate faster

heres my opinion, in a honda our powerbands are VERY short, and to go as fast as possible, u always wanna stay in that powerband.. the LS tranny is not a "long" tranny compared to gears on factory sports cars, but hondas do not have broad powerbands, turbo hondas dont have broad powerbands either, so the gear ratios are very important.. If the LS tranny causes u to fall below your peak powerband u r spending time in gear with less hp, WHO CARES IF ITS BOOST! its still LESS HP.. so ultimatly the shorter gears are better.

personlly I have the LS tranny and I like it, for my powerband it works ok, im sure id be faster with the GSR but i have to do a trade off.. right now my car tops out 4th at 7k rpm's and about 110mph, with a GSR tranny id be topping out 4th at just over 100 and for the racing I do that is just no fun. there are so many times i wish i could stay in 4th to 120..

keep in mind, jinxproof is running his car on 24-26" slicks which changes the gear ratios ALOT! his 4th gear prolly tops out around 135mph even with the short gears of the GSR and his increased redline.. so I can understand his hate towards the LS tranny in his scenario, now if he were running street tires 15" w/ 205/50's and his amount of hp, he might actually like the LS tranny because overall I think the power would be distributed the same way.. not sure about all this but just my thinking.

 

Now I am really confused. Is this fact based on running slicks or street tires. I am new to this board but not new to this sport. I do have a trailer queen twin turbo 8 sec GN and a low 10sec high 9 sec street GN. I know for a fact that quick rpms is hp, there is no disputing that. But my Integra will probably never go to the track or run a slick, but I street race alot. Now I like quick rpms provided I can ground it. I ride on 205/40/17 all the time. I like spinning tires as much as the next guy but not in a race. I put my B16A J1 tranny up forsale because peeps were telling me I need longer gear ratios of my LS tranny. I would like to hear more on this topic if you guys don't mind, because if I don't have to sell my B16A tranny, I won't. I will be slapping my motor in most likely this weekend and I have both trannies in my garage. Which is my best bet? I am not trying to stir the pot with the members on this board but I need quick answers. Please help.

My mods are:
-My B18A shortblock with STR block guard
-Eagle rods
-SRP forged pistons
- TypeR oil pump

- JG non vtec fully ported head (with stock valve train for the time being)
-1001 JG cams
-JG match ported intake manifold (stock)
-JG throttlebody
-Reactive aluminum crank pulley
-AEM cam gears
-T3 T4OE turbo (stock Grand National turbo)
-Drag manifold
-2 1/2" downpipe
-2 1/2 Exhaust to a Dyno Max muffler (straight pipe no cat)
-power steering belt removed
-Taylor 8mm wires
-NGK spark plugs (BCPR7ES-11) gapped @ 32
-all oil lines,
-Richard Lee Wastegate (uses the same flange as Deltagate buts supports up to 800whp)
-Grand National Intercooler modified with 2 " inlet and outlet (Front mount, supports up to 450whp)
-2 1/4 Chrome intercooler piping
-HKS blowoff valve
-Zydne Gold ecu
-450cc injectors
-B16A tranny with LS 5th gear/ LS tranny
-stock flywheel lightened to 13 pounds
-Clutch Masters Stage3 clutch & pressure plate
-Buick Grand National fuel pump
-B&M adjustable fuel pressure reg

 

im not even gonna bother argueing with you, you have a one track mind. one of those guys that thinks hondas rule the world. good luck with the open decked ls motor!

~Steve

 

mike try running each tranny in your setup, let us know what you come up with. Thats if you have time. Since half of my post was agreeing with lscivic earlier i believe you should run the b16 tranny, as for chidoks since i know his further plans beyond what he has written down the ls tranny would be more cost effective and better suited to his driving and projected power output and turbo setup. there can be no generalization that gsr tranny is better at all power outputs, thats just assinine.

~Steve

 

DIRep972, can you explain a lil' more about how wheel size and gear ratio affect each other...

I know that smaller wheels will let me accelerate faster and so as closer gear ratio..

 

Having too long a gear SUCKS. I have a wide powerband, but it still sucks. My 4th gear goes to 126mph, keep in mind I start 4th gear at ~93mph, MAN does than slow down a bit around the end of the 1/4 (it gets going again around 105mph). Just addding $.02.

Also, most of the people that I've heard that went from GSR tranny (Boosted) to LS tranny HATED it and lost several 1/10ths in the 1320. I had the LS tranny initially on my LSVTEC and MAN do those gears suck! Like Direp said, the boosted curve is still peaky. When I went to the JDM S1 tranny, it was night and day. No more 3rd gear going to 100mph

-C


[Modified by TypeC, 1:31 PM 5/2/2002]

 

are u talking to me?

was that a sarcastic statement about the open decked LS motor? if so u might be the one who is close minded here.. Do u have any idea what open deck can allow u to do with timing? common thought is that open deck is bad for boost, but there are advantages to open deck as well.. do u know them?

by the way, i do not think hondas rule the world, supras do!


[Modified by DIRep972, 8:28 PM 5/2/2002]

 

skyline!

 

damn good point you have there. I should have done more research before I made the statement above, how about "skylines rule the world, but supras rule Texas"

 

Wow, you guys are as serious as a heart attack. I guess you just gotta have thick *** skin to post on this board. Well at least y'all got your health.

 

not close minded at all, just have my opinions. I don't consider building my 69 mustang and a honda civic daily driver to be close minded while on the side building an sr20 powered 240, 11 second talon, turbo b20, and a 3000gt vr4 on the side for friends. i must be close minded i dont think i've ever worked on a hyundai....

i have heard what is possible with open decked motors but i have also seen alot of them in pieces. the open decked design allows for superior cooling over a closed deck design while sacrificing strength in the top of the sleeves. this often requires a high horsepoewr motor to be resleeved or adding a block guard. if you plan on pumping out the power to beat on dsm's you will almsot definately needs some sweet tuning or an iron sleeved block and a very large turbo. i don't doubt that you can do it becasue just about anyone can make a quick car now.

as for the transmission issue....everything done to a car is a trade off. there is no perfect part to any car. thats what i was trying to get through. im not trying to argue with you but i was saying there are different applications where a gsr trans is optimal and there are times an ls trans is optimal, if you think the gsr trans is the only one to use for all applications then i definately call you out as wrong. besides that if you had read my first post you would have noticed that i indeed agreed with what you were saying about the gsr transmission being the best for a given setup. i also agreed with the others that liked the ls tranny for their setup. if you want to continue to flame my posts about how the gsr is so great and whatnot after i agreed with your post, go ahead have a ball. well everything aside this has been a fun post but i must stop posting on this. Chidoks has descided to use his ls transmission so if you would like to argue this point start a new thread and i will give you some hard numbers to prove what im saying. again im not saying the ls tranny is good for everything and im not saying the gsr tranny is good for everything but i will be able to tell you why you would use each tranny for each different setup.

~Steve

 

steve- I never said the GSR is better in all applications either, but in the case of a turbo honda, it makes max power from 6.5-8k, and good power from 5.5-6.5k, and the turbo spools at 4k.. being in boost a long time is not a good thing if ur only at 5k rpms.. When deciding on your tranny for anycar u just need to look at the powerband, optimal acceleration will be achieved if u keep your car in the most powerful powerband, if the car has a broad powerband u may be just as succesful with longer gears, DSM's have broader powerbands but thats not to say that they wouldnt benefit from shorter gearing.. with all your experience you should understand what my inexperienced fingers are writing.

 

i have to agree. you have brought forth examples of cars you have either built or helped build... so why are you so unsure of your own experience? i see this back and forth feud about who said this and who said that... GEEZ! if you claim to be as experienced as you have stated, then you SHOULD know better.

DIRep972,
dont waste your time explaining anythin to this guy.

 

I like my ls tranny....the gsr tranny is nice on the street but i would like to keep my top speed up.... The 14b is a decent turbo...hits full boost at 2200...virtually no turbo lag... i have a 2.0 with a 9.6:1CR...i really am not bothered with waiting for the turbo to spool up or acceleration...my bottom end as is is good enough for me and would spool my turbo fine so i dont need a gsr tranny... Any problems with my acceleration or lag could be handled with a lightened flywheel while maintaining my top end...i am pretty comfortable with my drive train... i asked people to critique my turbo setup and not critique others.... I want a peaceful post and not a war... Rallycivic is not a newbie, he has helped me with every mod i have done to my car...and he did my whole b20 swap in less than 6 hours... just 'cos he doesnt post on this board a lot doesnt mean he is a newbie.... posting thousands of junk posts doesnt exactly make u a honda techie....if u have a point, defend it and dont try and start petty third grade fights....and by the way, the kid that said the dsm's have way more displacement and it was a whole different ball game is wrong... I have a b20 which is a 2.0 and an awd talon is 2.0...i dont see a displacement difference...stop the petty fights and grow up

 

i am very sure of the setupsi have worked on, i gave examples of wht trannies would benifit waht motor setups. i will outline it for you since you dont seem to get what i wrote....her is what i was basicallty saying

if your going to run low to medium boost applications and are going to only run on the track and you dont care about wasting gas on the highway the gsr transmission is sweet and would destroy the performance of the ls transmission

if your going to run high boost or you want to keep low highway rpms's and want to keep a high topspeed for streetracing then the ls trans is the way to go. most street racing around me includes pulls from 3rd gear until someone pulls past the other car. alot fo these races lastdeep into the 100's maybe into 5th gear on occasion.

reason i would not want to run high boost on a gsr trans is as follows: as the spool time increases the amount of time spent at full boost would decrease. theoretically you want to sit at your max boost for a good amount of time. a turbo car has a very broad powerband on any engine dsm or honda or whatever. that is so that the car can sit on boost as long as possible.

for drag racing purposes i can really understand the gsr trans for alot of the applications out there.

now to address that i am unsure of my own experiences.... when did i say i was unsure of my experiences? i have a 1.5 liter bottom end and 1.6 d16y8 head putting my compression ratio around 11.0:1, now when this setup was originally built it was running a jdm lsd short ratio transmission. That setup ran awesome until the tranny blew the diff. now i could have easily rebuilt the trans myself and thrown it back in the car and that would have been fine. knowing that i was changing toward a turbo setup i descided to revert back to the stock dx trans. That has a pretty long set of gears topping 3rd gear off at 97 with my current setup. now obviously i am going to go with a d16y8 bottom end to drop my compression back down and i am going to run 8.5:1 compression pistons and some rods etc. but i am pretty confident with the setups i have built and the ones i have helped build. assisting with the sr20det project 240sx my friend went to a lhigher gear ratio rear from a 300zx TT for his current setup w/stock t25. the car ran 13.7 @ 103 with a 3" exhaust as his only mod. He is upgrading his turbo this summer and with the larger turbo he is reinstalling the stock rear with an upgraded diff or spool setup. He used the higher ratio rear (same as swapping a final drive on a fwd) to make his current small turbo setup faster. that agrees with 93lsivic as i had agreed with him earlier that the shorter gears helped increase his quarter mile time. but as i was also explaining he is going to run a big turbo and not the 10-11 psi he is running now, at that point the stock rear ratio will make his times faster becasue he will be able to sit on boost longer. he wont be spooling the turbo up until a later rpm than he currently is. so the effective time that the turbo is adding power would gretly decrease if he retained the shorter ratio rear.

i hope everyone understands how a final drive/rear works in shortening and lengthening a cars gear ratios just like changin a transmissions gears would. just think of a mountain bike on that one. that is not directed at anyone just want to clarify that it is doing the same thing as changing between an ls and gsr trans.

another aspect of changing these gear ratios is the need for traction, using the longer gears to rettain traction. But that is a totally different issue.

i also think that staying on boost for a long time is a very good idea. for example look at superchargers, basically a turbo thats always spooled up. the longer a turbo is spooled up for the longer the powerband will be. as you increase turbo size the powerband decreases as time for spoolup leaves an "empty" (not literally) spot on the horsepower curve. Longr gears are used to transmit this shorter powerband over a longer time to put the power down.

i am also sorry for my responses to some of the flame comments i got, i should not have flamed back but tried to explain more in depth of the point i was trying to get across. i hope this post clarifies some of what i was saying.

instead of flaming me again (not pointing fingers anymore i dont want to argue about anything but the gearing issue) ask me to elaborate more on any point i made have made or missed. Thanks!

~Steve

 

Blah Blah Blah.........

 

TurboR481 - sweet reply buddy...thanks for the support!! you added some much needed info to this conversation. we couldnt have done it without you.

Thanks again
~Steve

 

Me, are you kidding me you cradle living newbie. I hope your not talking about me. Man I will smack the **** outta you....

 

Gee....its so easy to talk smack when u are behind a desktop knowing i cant get u... i laid down my facts...lay down urs...all you can reply is "cradle living newbie" ... hmmm.....2.0 b20 vs 2.0 4g63 .....ooohhhh, massive difference in displacement....grow up... u wanna smack the **** outta me?? I'll pay to see that one

 

don't worry Chidoks he'll hide behind his 1300 posts. We must be newbies if we don't par with his posts.

93LSivic - Why yes i was talking to you. You were wrong about displacement differences between a honda and a dsm, your car and Chidok's car are both within .2 liters. its ok if your wrong, you don't have to make yourself feel better by calling me a newbie. just bend over and take it.

When someone knows they have been made out to look like an *** (93LSivic)l they resort to "i will smack the **** out of you" proving they cant prve their point and giving us a good laugh in the process. If we want to talk about big displacement differences let compare your ***** to that of a small newborn child.

It's your useless one line posts that add up so quickly to your 1300 posts. Good luck replying to everyones posts saying nothing, you'll reach the 1500 mark real soon.

~Steve THE NEWBIE..hahaha
This is getting to be fun...

 

Actually its obvious that you dont understand a joke. I didnt even think that you were talking to me, but apparently you were. But dont come on here and praise the "I am a newbie and I will make you and everyone else understand that I am the most technical, informative person on the site" crap. I dont think you will have much to add. It takes a lot of brains to figure out that the b20 and 4g63 motor has roughly the same displacement. Can you tell me how much CFM they both push-probably not. You can go on and on about the glorious dsm motors (crank walk) and how they are great casue they have 210 hp stock (measly hp for turbo 2.0) and go on an on.
Im not trying to turn this into a pissing match or anything. If you look at my last replies to this thread you will notice that i commented accordingly.
Just dont think your gonna walk onto the board here and get instant fame by throwing a couple of long posts around--of which bore most people ofter the first paragraph --me it did anyway.

Ahh, lock this **** up....

 

Well damn, I cant miss out on a good flame war. Let me get in on this. Everyone is wrong, it's all about the GS-R tranny with LS final drive. Reason being is because then you get the close gear ratio of the GSR tranny in 3rd 4th and 5th (1st and 2nd are the same), however, you get the longer gearing of the LS tranny. VIREN WHERE ARE YOU? I KNOW YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT FINAL DRIVE!!

 

damn i missed out a good discussion about FD... how kewl.. I dont want to start any more wild posts about FD but it is very important to consider a fd ratio when building a setup,...

 

speculation.
get two otherwise completely identical cars with each tranny. race them. same driver. as many times as possible to help eliminate the margin of error. see which car is consistantly faster. problems solved.
then you can begin changing the varibles further to see how each outcome is altered.
if anyone cares enough, that is.

 

My car is going to be up and running in the next 2 weeks. I am going to use my B16a J1 tranny with the LS 5th gear first and track it, then I am going to pull that sum bitch out and put in the LS one and track it. I will post my results when I am done.