I was making over 100 lb/ft by 3000 RPM, and it climbed rapidly from there. I had a low-CR B16 running 20+ PSI of boost though. On a stock B16 only pushing 6 PSI of boost it the torque response would be better, and probably get down to 2500 with a little log manifold instead of the big ramhorn that I was using, although you'd have to subtract a little if you are using a FMU vice an EMS. With a stock JRSC/B16 setup he could expect to break 100 lb/ft by 2000 RPM, or basically whenever he hits the gas.

The main difference is the smoothness, the SC makes power linearly with RPM, while the turbo doesn't. I always liked the torque response of the SC better, the only problem that I had was that it didn't make much power, around 200 WHP is about the most I'd try for with a stock JRSC/B16 setup.

I think that a small turbo setup or a JRSC would both meet the requirements of the OP, and I'd lean towards the SC if he's only looking to push 6 PSI, relatively inexpensive, easy to install, and a lot of fun to drive. For a first-time boost setup a Greddy kit or something else cheap/simple might also be good, cheap, relatively bolt-on, and works fine at 6 PSI.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rmcdaniels &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> around 200 WHP is about the most I'd try for with a stock JRSC/B16 setup. </TD></TR></TABLE>

i said that like a year ago and you freaked out on me its ok though

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rmcdaniels &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think that a small turbo setup or a JRSC would both meet the requirements of the OP, and I'd lean towards the SC if he's only looking to push 6 PSI, relatively inexpensive, easy to install, and a lot of fun to drive. For a first-time boost setup a Greddy kit or something else cheap/simple might also be good, cheap, relatively bolt-on, and works fine at 6 PSI. </TD></TR></TABLE>

i pretty much agree with everything said there.

 

but if i installed a better valvetrain, raised the rev limiter, and kept my LS tranny, it would probably be better, right? anyway, why only 200whp? the pulleys can be changed and a Hondata could be used to support the change in timing and make the setup safer, so is this advised? they make 12 psi pulleys and 8 psi...

 

The keyword is stock. If you want to start modifying things and spending some money, then you can make a lot more power. Here's one of my old JRSC setups:



I made 227 on a B16A2 with a boost upgrade pulley and Hondata a few years ago, and that was relatively simple. Getting up around 300 requires a lot of work though.

If you are going to run more than 8 PSI, then I recommend at least an intercooler, and preferably blower porting. For over 11-12 PSI, I recommend a turbo (or a custom blower setup with a better blower than the M62 that comes with a JRSC kit, but that's a whole lot of custom fabrication that's best left until after you have a lot more experience).

For a first-time boost setup, I'd recommend the base kit with at least the MAP controller (preferably the MAP and the BTC), then upgrade as desired. ALWAYS upgrade engine management first; I learned that the hard way. OEM Honda pistons have relatively brittle ring lands and don't put up with a lot of detonation.

 

yea, the OEM cast pistons can be pretty weak for forced induction...

so, what did you have to do to get that power? i've never seen anything like that on a blower...

 

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1518026

 

RMC is the master of the Honda SC, short of him and a lot of money I haven't seen many people come very close to what he's done.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tony413 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">im not saying that torque is the end all be all. i know there are other factors. im just using 280ft/lbs as nothing more than a rule of thumb or very lose associate.

its just that usually the lowest amount of wheel torque honda's i see hit high 10's. most of the time have around ~280ft/lbs with VARYING wheel hp. thats all im saying. its nothing more than a benchmark.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'll put it this way, there is a very good reason why you can use 1/4 mile calculators with whp and why you can't use them with wtq.

Also, I've never really understood the low end arguement. "I have over 100lbs of torque under 3000rpms"

Well I guess that's cool, but I wasn't under 3000rpms my entire drive to work today other than idle. It's just the way Honda's are, the short tight gearing allows very little use for anything under 5000rpms when the pedal is down.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by gotrice16 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">yea, the OEM cast pistons can be pretty weak for forced induction...

so, what did you have to do to get that power? i've never seen anything like that on a blower...</TD></TR></TABLE>

the motor in that dyno graph is pretty much fully built, sleeves, forged pistons, tall deck, stand alone ecu with an aftercooler etc. Id say u could spend $5k+ pretty fast to replicate that build.

I went the same route your lookin at myself, spent over $4k on my setup on my stock gsr motor and I never even made it much past 250hp. U really need to listen to what these guys are tellin u, a properly sized turbo will always outshine a JRSC in almost every situation, If u NEVER EVER wanna go over 230hp then keep considering the JRSC, but bear in mind, a properly sized turbo will make more power with less boost and lower iat's

I think u need to look into a Greddy turbo kit, it will meet your goals and give u room to upgrade down the road as well

good luck with whatever u choose

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rmcdaniels &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The keyword is stock. If you want to start modifying things and spending some money, then you can make a lot more power.
I made 227 on a B16A2 with a boost upgrade pulley and Hondata a few years ago, and that was relatively simple. Getting up around 300 requires a lot of work though.

If you are going to run more than 8 PSI, then I recommend at least an intercooler, and preferably blower porting. For over 11-12 PSI, I recommend a turbo (or a custom blower setup with a better blower than the M62 that comes with a JRSC kit, but that's a whole lot of custom fabrication that's best left until after you have a lot more experience).

For a first-time boost setup, I'd recommend the base kit with at least the MAP controller (preferably the MAP and the BTC), then upgrade as desired. ALWAYS upgrade engine management first; I learned that the hard way. OEM Honda pistons have relatively brittle ring lands and don't put up with a lot of detonation.</TD></TR></TABLE>

This is the best advice you're going to receive on a JRSC setup to start off. I understand you're trying to get into forced induction with growth on the cheap, but that may not happen. JRSC setups like good compression, contrary to popular belief, but intake air temps on Roots Blowers are a bit higher than we'd like, so a water-cooled aftercooler or an intercooler would need to be in order.

Once again, the bolt on stock kit that comes with the management is good to about 6-8psi or so. After that, get ready to spend on tuning, especially if you get the upgrade pulley kit.

I like superchargers for road-racing, but because of the additional driveline loss from the crank-pulley, that is needed to drive the belt, on 4 cylinder applications, its not as fun. This is why the Chevy Cobalt SS went from supercharger to turbocharger. The driveline loss on 4 cylinder applications is a bit more than with 8 cylinder apps. Adding a bit of compression w/ the supercharger helps a bit, but not great.

 

I spent way more than $5K on that build, but something similar could be done for a lot less. A 10:1 LS-VTEC setup running 10-12 PSI from that blower setup should make similar numbers, although with a bit less torque.

Even without going crazy, 225 or so WHP in a daily driver is a lot of fun on the street.

It all depends on what you want, I like the torque response of a blower, for daily driving and road courses. If I wanted peak power or better ET's, then I'd run a turbo.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JRSC01GS-R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I think u need to look into a Greddy turbo kit, it will meet your goals and give u room to upgrade down the road as well </TD></TR></TABLE>

The OP has already gone with this discussion already. This is why he's looking at the JRSC.

PAGE 1
https://honda-tech.com/zero...age=1

PAGE 2
https://honda-tech.com/zero...22669

The bottom line is that gotrice is trying to spend $3K, no more, no less, with upgradability for more power, without spending more money in the future. I'm sure he thinks I'm picking on him, but I'm not.

I think myself and others are really trying to help him understand that if he gets the right turbo kit, he can get the lower hp he wants with a turbo kit, however, it will not be well tuned out of the box (with the exception of a Greddy Bolt on kit, which limits his future power goals), with no tuning, then expect to get his motor built, and still use the same kit to get more power later, again with no tuning.

He just has to understand that $3k just isn't going to do it safely and reliably without getting it properly tuned, or using a kit that is truly upgradable where he doesn't have to replace hardware, or retune (i.e. Greddy).

Many of us are saying that peakboost/spoolin performance/ AFI/Revhard, and others can do the job, but will require some tuning, and a little work.

I'm sorry, I can't excuse anything less than to get it done properly. I had a gentleman drive from Nova Scotia canada, all the way to my facility to have a Spoolin' Kit installed and dynotuned in 24 hours, after receiving the right parts. He even had most of the kit on, had it unhooked at an IC pipe to run at vaccum to the US, got tuned, drove all the way back to Canada, and has been happy ever since. If someone can do that, the OP can go somewhere 4 hours away and get it tuned properly with a good turbocharger kit using the right turbo.

Gotrice. Save a little bit of money, ole chap...do it correctly, and you won't regret it, I'm telling you.


Modified by TheShodan at 8:23 AM 7/31/2008


Modified by TheShodan at 7:43 AM 8/1/2008

 

i've actually posted about a greddy kit, no one thought it was a good idea...
i may sell my car, i've had my eye on a GSR powered EK hatch...it's putting 189 whp down and 152 torque, all motor...if i changed my mind, would a turbo kit for a GSR with the e-manage be what is needed? or, since the front ends are similar, would a 99-00 SI kit with a GSR e-manage work?

how would an intercooler work? would pretty much any FMIC work without any cutting or welding?

i don't want to seem flaky, because i have so many people suggesting turbo, but i want to ask honest questions i don't know the answers to...one of the main reasons i chose to research a JRSC setup was because it's pretty much bolt-on and run...from what people have said, the greddy is not...
i just want the cheaper option, because both seem to put the same power level out and be valid options...however, from what i've heard, an 18g puts out more hp and torque than a blower setup when maxed out...

just tell me the pros and cons of both...i'll make a decision based on what i can afford and what is safer...

 

but see, the jackson racing setup seems to be just bolt-on with the 5psi pulley, though//
am i right? can i run it without a tune for enough time to get money out of savings? 5 weeks, max...

and the only reason i'm impartial about the turbo or supercharger debate is because both seem produce excess of 200whp relatively easily...both seem fun for a daily driver...and both seem to be bolt-on and drive without a tune...the only reason i ask about increasing power is because, if i save enough money, i could upgrade in time...i've reached the point where i'm sick of my power level...it just simply isn't enough...i'm a sucker for "try it first"...

the way i see it, if i install either option and drive it around, i'd get a good feel for it...
i really don't care at this point whether i turbo or supercharge...both have pros and cons that are beneficial and a pain...if i could get an exact definition of what i need to run a greddy setup, intercooler included, without a tune(which i can't afford yet), such as "what kit to buy, what intercooler doesn't need modification"...just the cheapest way to experience it, because a majority of people seem to point turbo...however, the wide powerband of a JRSC seems tempting...
you guys seem to say that an 18g turbo has the same low-end power and torque as a supercharger and can make more power than one as well...

 

but also, a jackson racing seems to be "bolt-on and run", plus, it's cheaper...i want to learn how to tune the car on my own, but i need time to learn and i'd like to get a feel for a supercharger, too...both seem to be valid options...

i've also heard that a turbo really heats up the motor, but been told that a JRSC does too...i want what's most reliable, that can be daily driven and then pulled on the street without worrying about overheating or temps...i don't want to be restricted when it comes to my engine's integrity, just by the price of gas...lol

i want reliable and easy...

 

Gotrice16: read my posts, brother.. I've said this already, and either you're not taking the time reading and comprehending, or you may just be a bit confused because you're trying to find workarounds for things you might not have 100% knowledge of, just to save a few bucks.

No one said a Greddy kit wasn't a good idea, in fact, it was suggested already. It's not a good idea if you want to Build upon the kit later without tuning and upgrading hardware that is expensive. Greddy kit IS bolt on and "run", but that kit w/ e-manage has to be based upon the same engine that you have, and it cannot be used on the same program when increasing boost.

Yes, the JRSC is "bolt on & go" as you so colorfully put it, but it is even more limited than the Greddy, unless you upgrade it properly, which means, more money down the road. (Aftercooler/Intercooler, pulley upgrade, injectors, tuning.

It's not a pros & cons problem, because you keep changing your mind on what it is you want to accomplish. No one can help you if you don't pick a direction, and stick to it. Your "budget" is not altogether out of wack, but that is exactly what is keeping you from making a definate decision. People pick different types of forced induction for different reasons. (i.e purpose of use of the car, wanting to get a certain hp and either sticking with it, or perhaps upgrade later, they like the way turbos operate, etc).... Most don't go FI with a cheap budget in mind, unless they are willing to put in some serious work for the important things, which it doesn't seem you're willing to do by not tuning the car properly, or getting the right hardware that allows you to upgrade.

In your case, both of these kits (the Greddy, or the JRSC) are "reliable" because of their pre-programed tuning options that they use on the base kit. It is pre-tuned conservatively, because they are promoting CARB legality, and safe boost limits. Go outside of those limits, without proper preparation, and you'll lose that "reliability" that brought to that decision in the first place.

Now you're talking about staying NA with the potential to change your mind AGAIN to go boost. You'll be back to square one of your decision making after you've had that for a while. the JRSC kit that has the 5psi pulley is pretuned, so yes, you can run on that for a long time as long as you don't go outside of those boost parameters.

YOU NEED TO BE PARTIAL TO ONE OR THE OTHER, and not just which one makes the best power the cheapest, because YOU are the one going to be responsible for its upkeep and maintanence. I think I speak for many of us here in saying that we don't care which one you choose; we are not the ones that are driving the car. it is your decision, and your decision alone. If you haven't even ridden in a car that has had one of these kits installed, or if you don't fully understand how these types of FI work in detail, not knowing what is safer for your needs, then you're going to make an uninformed decision either way. You need to do some of this work yourself, we've given you all the clues of the pros and cons.. Honestly, you're not reading carefully to see the message.

 

okay, since i should be cut and dry...

I CHOOSE.............Supercharger...

i went to see jim today, and he's shown me his EG GSR setup that's pushing 238whp on 8psi...i've heard that it sounds like a crotch rocket, it'll rev from idle to the 9000rpm rev limit in less than half a second...he showed me the track sheet, i didn't see the quarter mile time but i saw the 8 second 1/8th time...amazing...

he said that he could beat any car with a greddy turbo or even a drag turbo that's tuned to 300 horsepower...on the highway, he said, it's a different story...it has different characteristics but it will pull many things and is even better with a valvetrain and higher RPMs...

if anyone could offer me a cheaper deal on a turbo than a JRSC, then i'll take it...
it must be COMPLETE!!!!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by gotrice16 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">okay, since i should be cut and dry...

I CHOOSE.............Supercharger...

i went to see jim today, and he's shown me his EG GSR setup that's pushing 238whp on 8psi...i've heard that it sounds like a crotch rocket, it'll rev from idle to the 9000rpm rev limit in less than half a second...he showed me the track sheet, i didn't see the quarter mile time but i saw the 8 second 1/8th time...amazing...

he said that he could beat any car with a greddy turbo or even a drag turbo that's tuned to 300 horsepower...on the highway, he said, it's a different story...it has different characteristics but it will pull many things and is even better with a valvetrain and higher RPMs...

if anyone could offer me a cheaper deal on a turbo than a JRSC, then i'll take it...
it must be COMPLETE!!!!</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well, if JIM says it, it must true right?!!

I'm not trying to disrespect your buddy Jim, but there are plenty of people who've done that on a greddy kit with their eyes closed. It's not about power, its the driver in that case of your quarter mile comparison. You must not have seen enough of these in your area. Hell, on my old GSR Greddy kit, I was at 257whp at 8.5psi, and that was with a BLUE BOX before e-manage. that was back in 2000. Its a common goal, so don't spluge over Jim's t-shirt yet.

Anywho, glad you made a decision ( or at least leaning towards it). You'll need to go to the classifieds in order to find one that is in your cheaper range. You won't find any solicitous advertising or sales on this part of the forum.

 

Here you go. Greddy kits

http://www.hondamarketplace.co...41951

http://www.hondamarketplace.co...39247

Best one yet. complete w/ management..

http://www.hondamarketplace.co...28269

now stop being silly and get it already..

 

no, it's not the driver...it's the throttle response and power curve...
if the turbo starts spooling at 3500, it's not going to have full power until the higher rpms...
if a supercharger makes that power down low and carries that power during the 60 ft and still makes the same boost through the gear, it will pull the turbo hard until the turbo reaches full potential and actually makes the max horsepower...it's like racing a car that gains power as it goes until it maxes at a number against a car that makes that number all through the powerband...

so enough saying that a turbo is better than a supercharger if they are pushing the same boost with same power numbers...this is untrue...the fact is, a turbo is easier to mod and makes more power than a supercharger can...if you ran a Greddy setup and a jackson setup at the same psi from out of the box, the supercharger would win....period..
now, the driver is also a factor, but if they were driven by the same driver, the above statement is true...
the only reason i'm considering a turbo is because they are cheaper and seem to make a ****-ton of power...i have yet to see a supercharger beat an STI...
that's my goal as of now...beat the STI that's on campus...how do i do it?

 

will this greddy kit give an STI a struggle? also, what would this setup run on the quarter with 8psi?

 

STI's are easy, get some sticky tires so they don't leave you at the start and they fall on their faces in the back 1/8.

Vid of a JRSC B18 running mid-low 12's at over 3000 ft (that should be good enough to beat STI's):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOxNpakHsRk

Check the JRSC thread for used blower kits, a lot of them get posted there, it's where I sold mine. You can get something decent for 1/2 the cost of a new one.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by gotrice16 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">no, it's not the driver...it's the throttle response and power curve...
if the turbo starts spooling at 3500, it's not going to have full power until the higher rpms...
if a supercharger makes that power down low and carries that power during the 60 ft and still makes the same boost through the gear, it will pull the turbo hard until the turbo reaches full potential and actually makes the max horsepower...it's like racing a car that gains power as it goes until it maxes at a number against a car that makes that number all through the powerband...

so enough saying that a turbo is better than a supercharger if they are pushing the same boost with same power numbers...this is untrue...the fact is, a turbo is easier to mod and makes more power than a supercharger can...if you ran a Greddy setup and a jackson setup at the same psi from out of the box, the supercharger would win....period..
now, the driver is also a factor, but if they were driven by the same driver, the above statement is true...
the only reason i'm considering a turbo is because they are cheaper and seem to make a ****-ton of power...i have yet to see a supercharger beat an STI...
that's my goal as of now...beat the STI that's on campus...how do i do it?</TD></TR></TABLE>

You know what.. I'm done helping. If you know everything about FI already, how it works, and what makes a better powerband for the need, then you don't need any help here. You can now stop asking about pros & cons, and get whatever the hell you want. Been doing this over 10 years, and know the different characteristics of each component. Good luck to you in whatever it is you decide

Try and help, and you get spat on with arrogant unfounded conclusions.. I get it...


Modified by TheShodan at 7:12 AM 8/1/2008

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by gotrice16 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">no, it's not the driver...it's the throttle response and power curve...
if the turbo starts spooling at 3500, it's not going to have full power until the higher rpms...
if a supercharger makes that power down low and carries that power during the 60 ft and still makes the same boost through the gear, it will pull the turbo hard until the turbo reaches full potential and actually makes the max horsepower...it's like racing a car that gains power as it goes until it maxes at a number against a car that makes that number all through the powerband...

so enough saying that a turbo is better than a supercharger if they are pushing the same boost with same power numbers...this is untrue...the fact is, a turbo is easier to mod and makes more power than a supercharger can...if you ran a Greddy setup and a jackson setup at the same psi from out of the box, the supercharger would win....period..
now, the driver is also a factor, but if they were driven by the same driver, the above statement is true...
the only reason i'm considering a turbo is because they are cheaper and seem to make a ****-ton of power...i have yet to see a supercharger beat an STI...
that's my goal as of now...beat the STI that's on campus...how do i do it?</TD></TR></TABLE>


this is a thread where pickleteg switched from 11lbs boost on a jrsc to 9lbs boost on a turbo and made more power all throughout the power band, seems to me like the properly sized turbo owns the jrsc in every way
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=2283214


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CarterRace.com &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">We have had the privilege to work with Jason (Picketeg) over the last couple of years - first tuning his JRSC LS setup and now tuning his new PeakBoost turbo setup. The motor is a pistons / rods LS with 10:1 compression on stock sleeves, ported head and the regular bolt ons. The new turbo kit works MUCH better then the old JRSC.



The difference in the supercharger and turbo are very apparent in the following graphs.

SUPERCHARGER - 12PSI
TURBO - 9PSI

So, with less boost on the same exact motor and setup you get the following results.





To most people, this is a known fact - but I still like posting real info that compares the to forms of forced induction. The turbo car is on less boost and makes tons more power and tq. I like the graph becuase it really blow the whole "yeah but while your spooling..." arguement out the water. Amazing isn't it?</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JRSC01GS-R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">this is a thread where pickleteg switched from 11lbs boost on a jrsc to 9lbs boost on a turbo and made more power all throughout the power band, seems to me like the properly sized turbo owns the jrsc in every way</TD></TR></TABLE>

Since when does "all throughout the powerband" mean above 3800 RPM. That car, like all properly supercharged cars, was pulling hard from idle on. Around 3800 RPM the turbo finally caught up and passed it, but that's to be expected from the respective compressor maps of the two setups, regardless of if they are super- or turbo- charged. If everyone on HT would learn to use a compressor map then we wouldn't have these ridiculous threads. My SC'd car pulls hard, instantly, from anywhere. My "power band" starts around 1000 RPM and goes to 8000, although I don't hit VTEC until 2000 RPM, but you can do that with a blower.


Hint to the OP, the turbo usually wins a drag race. When I drag-raced with a turbo my RPM's never got below 5000, that's what I launched at. On the bright side, SC's do love a small pre-blower shot of nitrous for drag racing

 

how about the highway? same story?

i'm interested about the nitrous, by the way...

could your 8psi setup have maybe beat an STI? the chick i want to beat has been anti-honda since the start...
she thinks that just because she makes 280whp she can take anyone because she has turbo and an AWD...
she didn't even buy her car in the first place, let alone build it herself...
plus, if a stock STI can run with the best cars, a hit from a honda will shock her system...
i don't drag too often, but i want at least a 13-12 second car...this new GSR can run 14.1 easy, it's a good platform...
if anyone wants a B16 EG, let me know,,,selling for 4000,,
and from what i hear, a blower is more fun as a daily driver...