okay, i'm new to the supercharger ballgame...i know how they work, and basic theory on increasing their efficiency...

anyway, i'm considering a Jackson racing setup on my B16. here are the reasons...

1. it's cheaper than a turbo kit, and not as addicting and easily controlled and diagnosed...
2. it puts out lower hp numbers with a completely different power curve...this is desirable to me, as i don't want to put down more than 260whp...

my questions about the build are,
is the kit a simple bolt-on affair? i've heard it's as easy as changing a manifold and running vacuum lines...
also, does the bottom end need reinforcement? i know that for a turbo setup, 250 on a stock motor with reasonable leakdown reading is the limit...but a supercharger is a complete different system...
and last but not least, is a standalone ECU mandatory? if it can be run in bolt-on form with no tuning, i'd like to, but i won't tolerate detonation or potentially dangerous engine situations....it's a daily driver, and I aims to keep it that way

 

I never looked into the supercharging game. I have a turboed accord. I would assume when it comes to the bottom end, the issue of forging would be based on how much power you want. I'm not sure what car you have. I know on my accord, the turbo setup will handle 8 psi on stock internals...some have gone to 10psi. i think for 250whp on a stock motor is going to push it for an every day driver without some bottom end work. You would absolutely need tuning. You don't need a standalone. Depending on what car you have, you can chip your ecu, or find a compatible obd1/obd0 (depending on car again) ecu and chip that. With forced induction, tuning is key.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

also, does the bottom end need reinforcement? i know that for a turbo setup, 250 on a stock motor with reasonable leakdown reading is the limit...but a supercharger is a complete different system...
and last but not least, is a standalone ECU mandatory? i</TD></TR></TABLE>

turbo b16's can go much higher than 250whp but i digress, to answer your question, no, you dont need to build your bottom end and a stand alone is not required, you can run an FMU and fuel pump as long as your not running more than 6psi you will be plenty safe.

only downside to the FMU and fuel pump setup is you probably wont brake 175whp. with tuning, larger injectors, etc... 210+whp is achievable.

 

so, what do you think is the max whp i could get out of a jackson setup? i know there are higher boost pulleys, ECU tuning, blower porting, and larger throttle bodies that would increase the power output...

so the supercharger would allow me to use the stock injectors if i use a new fuel pump and FMU? what injector size would you recommend for 250 whp?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by gotrice16 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">so, what do you think is the max whp i could get out of a jackson setup? i know there are higher boost pulleys, ECU tuning, blower porting, and larger throttle bodies that would increase the power output...

so the supercharger would allow me to use the stock injectors if i use a new fuel pump and FMU? what injector size would you recommend for 250 whp?</TD></TR></TABLE>

after all that is said n done, you would've surpassed the price of a simple turbokit and be making much less power. Theres a reason why there are so many turbo'd hondas on here and its not just a bandwagon !

 

supercharged cars sound way better to me, and there is always the possibility of a twin charger system...so, for now, i'm going with the cheaper option and the one that i can do on my own...then maybe i'll twin-charge...any imput on that?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by gotrice16 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">there is always the possibility of a twin charger system...so, for now, i'm going with the cheaper option and the one that i can do on my own...then maybe i'll twin-charge...any imput on that?</TD></TR></TABLE>


easy....... DONT DO IT

 

why? explain please...

 

1. You will want to put down more then 260 whp one day.
2. The intake air temperatures of a jackson charger are just stupid.
3. Go turbo & never look back (the right way).
4. Read https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1544043 for engine management advice.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by gotrice16 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">why? explain please...</TD></TR></TABLE>

Twin charged = turbo + supercharger on one motor.

1. you are not VW or mercedes
2. it's a huge waste of money when you could just buy a proper sized turbo
3. if you run you a centrifugal charger and turbo you will have space problems.
4. if you run a intake manifold style supercharger, after a certain when the turbo kicks in, the supercharger just merely becomes a blockage.

 

i don't really want turbo, though...
1. a turbo doesn't really enrich bottom-end power...
2. a complicated piping system can have problems and be a pain to diagnose...
3. i don't want a ridiculous 400whp setup because i won't get traction and won't have good mileage...
4. a turbo setup is more expensive for an incomplete kit...no fuel components or ECU

there's nothing wrong with a twin charged setup...tell that to the s2000 here in Birmingham that has both and a ZEX nitrous setup, putting down 380 whp and running ridiculous E.T.s...

what's wrong with the intake temperature on a Jackson racing blower?
i'm not trying to argue, i just want an explanation so i can learn...

plus, if superchargers suck so bad, why are they still on the market and powering the Civic that beat the Bonneville honda speed record at 191 mph? They must not be that bad if a centrifugal setup can put out 500whp...
would i be better off with a vortech setup?

 

more to support my opinion...

a JRSC costs 2360 shipped to the door...you can't find a turbo setup that's complete and worth a crap, let alone control boost and make power...i've been told first-hand that a turbo setup is hard to have under $3000...if a jackson setup bolts on in 8-10 hours, it's an easier and cheaper setup without needing fabrication...plus, if i spend $3000 on a JRSC build, i could buy a complete setup and also afford a Hondata s300, bigger injectors , and a walbro pump...spending less than 3gs and making around 250whp...hmmm, let's see...if i did the same for a turbo kit, i'd have spent over 3 grand, have no low-end power or torque, and not make much power because i'd have to spend more for a larger exhaust piping...also, i'd have no way to control the boost...

plus, if jacksons make "too much heat", why don't they need intercoolers? another efficiency of their design, they don't lose boost by extending piping...

i'm sick of people saying that a supercharger is more expensive than a turbo...none is better than the other overall, it is just dependant on the tuning...i'm sure that if i beat a turbo B16, i wouldn't say that superchargers are better...it only depends on which is tuned better and has a better power-to-weight...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by gotrice16 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i don't really want turbo, though...
1. a turbo doesn't really enrich bottom-end power...
2. a complicated piping system can have problems and be a pain to diagnose...
3. i don't want a ridiculous 400whp setup because i won't get traction and won't have good mileage...
4. a turbo setup is more expensive for an incomplete kit...no fuel components or ECU</TD></TR></TABLE>

1. if you get a 50 trim .48 a/r turbo you will have tons of low end but no top end hell if you get a stock mitsu 14b (which blows) you can still roast tires.
2. im sry if having 3 pipes is really that complicated for you
3. if u dont want 400whp then get a small turbo and have only 250-300 which is perfect for the street car. also you will still get in the 30mpg range at a decent speed granted your tune is good. and what makes you think you will have traction in a supercharged FWD
4. you still need a ECU and the stock fuel system is good upto 500whp and some people go beyond that. F.I. is F.I. and you will spend a fair amount of money.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by gotrice16 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
there's nothing wrong with a twin charged setup...tell that to the s2000 here in Birmingham that has both and a ZEX nitrous setup, putting down 380 whp and running ridiculous E.T.s...</TD></TR></TABLE>

do you have some type of complex and im calling on the s2000. 380whp is not going to pull any auto to a ridiculous ET and to me that means 8.5 second 1/4 mile or better. the weight to power ratio just isnt there even if the car weights 2000lbs

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by gotrice16 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
what's wrong with the intake temperature on a Jackson racing blower?
i'm not trying to argue, i just want an explanation so i can learn...
</TD></TR></TABLE>

try reading up about roots, twin screw, and centrigual style blowers its that simple and can be found in the FAQ

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by gotrice16 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
plus, if superchargers suck so bad, why are they still on the market and powering the Civic that beat the Bonneville honda speed record at 191 mph? They must not be that bad if a centrifugal setup can put out 500whp...
would i be better off with a vortech setup?</TD></TR></TABLE>

when is the last time if EVER.... you have seen a 550whp supercharged only 1.6, 1.8 or 2.0 litre engine. link me if its online. and im not saying that superchargers suck, im just saying they arent really the way for small displacement engines. on V8's they work great but IMO anything under 8 cyl should be turbo'd

 

gotrice16 the truth is you are NOT READY FOR FORCED INDUCTION!

and a little fyi a GT28rs will make more low end torque than any supercharger and there good for ~340+whp a JRSC will never beat a properly sized turbo in any part of the power band, END OF STORY!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by gotrice16 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">more to support my opinion...

a JRSC costs 2360 shipped to the door...you can't find a turbo setup that's complete and worth a crap, let alone control boost and make power...i've been told first-hand that a turbo setup is hard to have under $3000...if a jackson setup bolts on in 8-10 hours, it's an easier and cheaper setup without needing fabrication...plus, if i spend $3000 on a JRSC build, i could buy a complete setup and also afford a Hondata s300, bigger injectors , and a walbro pump...spending less than 3gs and making around 250whp...hmmm, let's see...if i did the same for a turbo kit, i'd have spent over 3 grand, have no low-end power or torque, and not make much power because i'd have to spend more for a larger exhaust piping...also, i'd have no way to control the boost...

plus, if jacksons make "too much heat", why don't they need intercoolers? another efficiency of their design, they don't lose boost by extending piping...

i'm sick of people saying that a supercharger is more expensive than a turbo...none is better than the other overall, it is just dependant on the tuning...i'm sure that if i beat a turbo B16, i wouldn't say that superchargers are better...it only depends on which is tuned better and has a better power-to-weight...
</TD></TR></TABLE>

ok look heres a good deal http://www.hondamarketplace.com/zerothread/2060166
tune on crome pro until you can afford better. and a walbro is only $90 c'mon man. get some 450cc DSM injectors from ebay or dsm tuner forum $100-$150

there you go a decent power building kit for under $3k

also roots an/or twin screw superchargers do have intercooler (aftercooler) made for them. they look similiar to a oil cooler. they more commonly found in rousch mustangs or saleens.

honestly i think superchargers are great if you plan on racing in sauctioned HPDE events or road courses but other than that i dont see the purpose for a street driven small displacement engine with a supercharger. however a turbo can be fit to any style of driving and most situations

 

okay, so what you're saying is that the stock 270cc injectors and the factory fuel pump are good for 500 hp? yea right, bro! it'll probably run 500 hp once, and then detonate so much that it'll crap out...in lift, the injector is running at 100% duty cycle already...

oh, yea, and you must also think that an 8.5 second car can be driven on the street, huh? is that your idea of ridiculous ets? Chris Rado's integra build wasn't daily driven, and it ran those exact times...if you think that a car that needs launch control and all kinds of anti-lag to run an 8.5 can be driven on the street, you are crazy
380 whp is plenty to make this s2000 run 12's with a full interior and speaker setup...let's see, i would think that 12 seconds is pretty freakin' fast...but from what it sounds like, it seems like you are using the 10 second daily driven mentality from fast and the furious...
it's a honda, not a freakin' supra with 500whp...

oh, and if not being die-hard turbo makes me "NOT READY FOR FORCED INDUCTION", then I guess that Oscar Jackson is not ready for forced induction, either...oh, yea, and Brian Gillespie too...Oooops, that's right! Without him, Honda's wouldn't have anywhere near the same following and you'd still be jacking off to fast and the furious...

please don't tell me what i'm ready for...if i weren't ready, i wouldn't be asking...all i wanted to know was if a base JRSC kit could be run easily and without an ECU for a couple days, enough to save for a hondata...this wasn't meant to be a flame-off, i just wanted simple info without people trying to swing me towards turbo...i already considered turbo, and i also considered nitrous...in the end, i found this to be the safest setup that didn't require much fundage and energy...don't forget, this is a daily driven civic that has to be at work daily, has to be at school, has to be driven to the store, the gas station,etc...this car nor I can afford to be off the road for a week just for a turbo setup that isn't in my budget anyway...

to change the tone, could a stroker kit that bores and strokes the motor to 2.0 liters be a good idea for a supercharger setup? just curious, not in my budget...

 

oh, and the local dyno doesn't do crome at all...i've considered it...

i'm tuning it with the help of a friend of mine with his own shop...i want an experienced tuner teaching me hands-on before i even attempt it myself with any program...

plus, this won't be my only honda build...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by gotrice16 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">okay, so what you're saying is that the stock 270cc injectors and the factory fuel pump are good for 500 hp? yea right, bro! it'll probably run 500 hp once, and then detonate so much that it'll crap out...in lift, the injector is running at 100% duty cycle already...

oh, yea, and you must also think that an 8.5 second car can be driven on the street, huh? is that your idea of ridiculous ets? Chris Rado's integra build wasn't daily driven, and it ran those exact times...if you think that a car that needs launch control and all kinds of anti-lag to run an 8.5 can be driven on the street, you are crazy
380 whp is plenty to make this s2000 run 12's with a full interior and speaker setup...let's see, i would think that 12 seconds is pretty freakin' fast...but from what it sounds like, it seems like you are using the 10 second daily driven mentality from fast and the furious...
it's a honda, not a freakin' supra with 500whp...

oh, and if not being die-hard turbo makes me "NOT READY FOR FORCED INDUCTION", then I guess that Oscar Jackson is not ready for forced induction, either...oh, yea, and Brian Gillespie too...Oooops, that's right! Without him, Honda's wouldn't have anywhere near the same following and you'd still be jacking off to fast and the furious...

please don't tell me what i'm ready for...if i weren't ready, i wouldn't be asking...all i wanted to know was if a base JRSC kit could be run easily and without an ECU for a couple days, enough to save for a hondata...this wasn't meant to be a flame-off, i just wanted simple info without people trying to swing me towards turbo...i already considered turbo, and i also considered nitrous...in the end, i found this to be the safest setup that didn't require much fundage and energy...don't forget, this is a daily driven civic that has to be at work daily, has to be at school, has to be driven to the store, the gas station,etc...this car nor I can afford to be off the road for a week just for a turbo setup that isn't in my budget anyway...

to change the tone, could a stroker kit that bores and strokes the motor to 2.0 liters be a good idea for a supercharger setup? just curious, not in my budget... </TD></TR></TABLE>

ok every one its offical he does have a learning complex lets all just ignore this thread

and FYI 12's are freaking slow. the old CFT blue civic had full interior and A/C and was daily driven and still ran 10's

http://youtube.com/watch?v=OxY9sHaWYmo dyno
http://youtube.com/watch?v=KlazXa6zm5k track run


Modified by tony413 at 10:29 PM 7/28/2008

 

explain how i have a learning complex...oh, and there you go talking about 10's again...
if you have a 12 second car or better, show it...12 seconds is not slow...some of the most prestigious sports cars can only grace 13s...choice Lamborghinis, Ferraris, and even the Dodge Viper can grab 12 seconds at best...so having an econo box that can race with a dodge viper is not exactly slow...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by gotrice16 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
oh, and if not being die-hard turbo makes me "NOT READY FOR FORCED INDUCTION", then I guess that Oscar Jackson is not ready for forced induction, either...oh, yea, and Brian Gillespie too...Oooops, that's right! Without him, Honda's wouldn't have anywhere near the same following and you'd still be jacking off to fast and the furious...

please don't tell me what i'm ready for...

to change the tone, could a stroker kit that bores and strokes the motor to 2.0 liters be a good idea for a supercharger setup? just curious, not in my budget... </TD></TR></TABLE>

i say your not ready cause you seem to be under the impression that a roots blower on a honda makes more power on the bottom end compared to a properly matched turbo and thats just incorrect. further more you go on to ask if stroking the motor will help, your clearly not ready, you dont have enough info or the correct info, and before you go mouthing off about F&F and hasport i been in this damn game for 8 years try talking about placeracing, back in the day when if you had 17" you only had 2 tire options, before people called civic's eg ek or ef's, i been there done that and i am telling you that you dont have the right info. i have nothing against SC a honda as long as your SURE it is what you want and based on what your saying it sounds like your not 100% sure, but its your money and your car, do as you wish

 

i understand what you're saying...i'm not trying to disrespect you or your experience...and of course i don't have the right info, if i did, honda-tech would be the last place i'd be reading for supercharger info...it seems like everyone here is turbo or all-motor biased...i have been all-motor for a long while...i want something new and a turbo definately isn't it...so i get irritated when people can't give me a straight answer...
i'm sure that turbo is the Sauce, and i'm sure that it can make more low-end torque if you spent enough money to make it do so...but this is not what i desire...

didn't mean to disrespect, just to correct people when they say 12 seconds is slow... fast and the furious seemed to make people think that a daily-driven car could run 10's and have a full stereo setup and heavy neon and useless body kits...honda is definately hard to make fast, but i doubt that you'd see a 10 second daily driven car powered on pump gas that could last for over 180,000 miles...

oh, and is boring and stroking bad for SC because it increases compression? because i know compression is a no-no for a daily driven inducted honda...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by gotrice16 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">explain how i have a learning complex...oh, and there you go talking about 10's again...
if you have a 12 second car or better, show it...12 seconds is not slow...some of the most prestigious sports cars can only grace 13s...choice Lamborghinis, Ferraris, and even the Dodge Viper can grab 12 seconds at best...so having an econo box that can race with a dodge viper is not exactly slow...
</TD></TR></TABLE>

your missing that purpose behind those cars, they are meant to handle and do it with speed and have luxery, not be all out drag cars.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by gotrice16 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i understand what you're saying...i'm not trying to disrespect you or your experience...and of course i don't have the right info, if i did, honda-tech would be the last place i'd be reading for supercharger info...it seems like everyone here is turbo or all-motor biased...i have been all-motor for a long while...i want something new and a turbo definately isn't it...so i get irritated when people can't give me a straight answer...
i'm sure that turbo is the Sauce, and i'm sure that it can make more low-end torque if you spent enough money to make it do so...but this is not what i desire...

didn't mean to disrespect, just to correct people when they say 12 seconds is slow... fast and the furious seemed to make people think that a daily-driven car could run 10's and have a full stereo setup and heavy neon and useless body kits...honda is definately hard to make fast, but i doubt that you'd see a 10 second daily driven car powered on pump gas that could last for over 180,000 miles...

oh, and is boring and stroking bad for SC because it increases compression? because i know compression is a no-no for a daily driven inducted honda...</TD></TR></TABLE>

can someone else chime in here. its just not sinking in.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by gotrice16 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i understand what you're saying...i'm not trying to disrespect you or your experience...and of course i don't have the right info, if i did, honda-tech would be the last place i'd be reading for supercharger info...it seems like everyone here is turbo or all-motor biased...i have been all-motor for a long while...i want something new and a turbo definately isn't it...so i get irritated when people can't give me a straight answer...
i'm sure that turbo is the Sauce, and i'm sure that it can make more low-end torque if you spent enough money to make it do so...but this is not what i desire...

</TD></TR></TABLE>

all good, i was a dick too i just had a lot of customers in the past that were VERY unhappy with there JRSC, a few of them even said "i feel like i just threw my money in the trash" and i felt bad for all of them, there is nothing worse than spending good money to not be happy. best thing you can do is try to find someone local with a JRSC, and go for a drive with them. maybe post in GDD about it to find local people. i am not biased to turbo, centrifugal SC, roots SC, NOS, or NA setups, all have there fun side all have there down side.

anywho to answer your question yes a 2.0 will benefit more from a JRSC but at that point there just so much fun NA... i just think the 2g's is better spend elsewhere, I'm sorry i dont mean to keep talking bad about JRSC, just go for it i guess, worse case scenario you can take it off and sell it if your not happy.

sometimes we just need to try it for ourself, we need to get it out of our system...

 

a honda can be comfortable and still be 12 second fast...plus, the interior of a Viper isn't much to look at, they aren't very roomy and, apart from leather racing seats, they are actually pretty cut-and-dry...

but anyway, here's something that will sink in...

stop posting...you are only annoying me and not even offering any useful imput, just some biased advice on turbos and, since you have such difficulty reading, i'll make it simple...

I DONT WANT ANY ADVICE ON TURBOS...I'VE ALREADY DECIDED...

plus, no one is going to "chime in". you are annoying everyone and not helping. Get lost...I'm asking valid questions, and since i don't know the answers, i'm asking for advice and facts, not for someone to make fun of me or act like they are the Honda Guru...

 

thanks, man...now, see, that's good advice...drive with someone who has one...thank you...