boosteddohczc

i have a 93 civic lx with a 2000 civic SI b16 swap. i have eagle rods supertech 9.2:1 pistons acl bearings arp head studs skunk 2 dual valve springs gsr cams and a few other small things all on the car built and tuned by me. now my turbo is a garrett t3 .42 .48 turbo and im running 17 psi. goes really good. only complaint is that around 6800-7000 rpm's the boost tappers down to about 12-13 psi. there is no boost leaks, i just think its that the turbo cant keep up with the rpm's?? so i have a garrett .50 ar compressor housing and i bought a new garrett 57 trim wheel and a new garrett back plate. i just rebuilt the turbo about 2 weeks ago due to oil blow by on the seals so i have no problem taking the turbo apart. all of this will bolt right to my turbo so what i would like to know is if this will help me out with the falling boost tapper and will i see power gains. and my plains are to re tune it on 20 psi. now im not a noob to building motors or tuning them cuz thats like my second job and have been building motors since 02 and tuning them since 05. (on my own stuff and tons of peoples around here) its just i normally just buy a turbo that will meet the hp goals i have but im kinda on a budget and also like to do things myself and learn everything i can so any help or advice would be appreciated.. thanks

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

The turbine still won't keep up, even if you upgrade the compressor wheel and backplate to your existing setup. The only way you could make this work is to remachine your current compressor cover to the contour of the 57 trim, rebalance the wheel to the older turbine shaft, only to get mediocre results even more because of the turbine wheel that is too small. By the time you change the turbine wheel, your "budget" just went to a new turbocharger that would bolt on and fit.

Time to sell your existing turbocharger to a D-series guy and get another one.. sorry.

boosteddohczc

hmm not what i was hoping to hear lol... i work in a machine shop and do all my own machining on my car stuff so that wouldn't cost me anything. i do all my own head work and pretty much if i can make it instead of buying it i do. i just really wanna figure out this turbo stuff cuz thats really the only knowledge that im lacking when it comes to this. (like ar, trim and wheel size stuff) so your saying i wont see any results anywhere in the powerband doing this? or r u saying it prob wont help with the loss of boost up top

Bix VT

I have the same turbo you do (t3, .42/.48) but this is my daily so I don't push it past 5k very often. You may even want to go with a .63; below is an explanation I found on another forum which you may find helpful:

The numbers aren't spot on for every application, but it illustrates the point well enough. The larger the outlet, the more it will flow, resulting in better power up top, but spool will be slower because exhaust velocity goes down when traveling through a larger hole.

boosteddohczc

hmm so its the damn exhaust wheel n housing that's holding me back?? it still pulls to 8000 rpms its just i lose a little bit of boost. im tempted to just buy a ebay t3t04e turbo (the one with the same cold side as the parts i already bought and the .63 ar exhaust side) and rebuild it with garrett parts so that i can do it cheaper... i mean i already have the garrett compressor compressor housing, wheel and back plate anyway. any ideas on that?? also id like to hear more about my original plan like will there b any gains at all since i already have the parts??

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

As I said, with that turbine wheel mismatch with a larger 51lbs/min compressor wheel, no. Even if you change to a larger volute housing. The T3 that you have was made for lower end torque only, and not for upper end power with a 245cfm cylinder head like a B16.

The issue with the machining is not the cost for one that owns a machine shop, its the difficulty in making that 57 trim compressor wheel fit in that particular housing. There's not enough material for it fit the contour of that housing.

I'd wait, save some funds for a good Garrett that's about $685 instead of falling for the Ebay siren of hell.

boosteddohczc

oh, well what i was saying is i have the housing that goes to the 57 trim wheel and the back plate that goes with it so there would b no machining just taking the compressor housing, wheel and back plate off thats on the the turbo now off and bolting the other newer bigger ones on...

maybe im wrong which it sounds like i am but to me it seems like the turbine has to spin super fast to make the little compressor wheel spin fast enough to make the boost pressure that im running, but it cant keep up at the end of my power band. so the reason i bought all these parts is cuz it seems to me that a bigger compressor wheel wont have to spin as fast to make the same amount of boost so therefore the exhaust wheel wouldn't be spinning as fast either so it should keep up with my motor. now i might be looking at that wrong but just seems like it would work.

ok so since i already have spent the money on these parts is it gonna hurt me to use them?? cuz i dont want to lose power since the plan was to make more.

boosted_D

iTrader: (1)

So you have a 57 trim comp. wheel, and a comp. housing to go with it, and you will still have the .48 turbine.....As long as the turbo gets properly balanced after the rebuild, (I know you work in a machine shop, so maybe you can do this on your own? I'm not sure) it will work fine, if the balance is off then the turbo will destroy it's self in no time flat, so make sure it is properly balanced.

With this new cold side, you will need to re tune, and yes you will see considerable hp gains, but, it will still lose pressure and have a hard time keeping up after 7000 rpm. BUT it will still make better power, and it will probably hold a little more boost in the upper rpm's than it does now.

Ultimatley you do need a .63 turbine to keep up in the higher revs, but this upgrade will still be worth while if you already have all the stuff to do it.

boosteddohczc

ok thats good to hear... i know ill have to re tune it i already planed on that, and since i do it myself with a buddy who always drives for me while i tune, it will get done right after i put it together... so like i said im new to taking the turbo apart stuff so bare with me if this sounds stupid. If i have a garret 57 trim wheel that says its balanced and my turbo should b balanced since it is also a garrett turbo what would i have to balance?? i didn't balance anything when i had it apart a couple of weeks ago to change the bearings and seals in the turbo. Also to do that you have to take the compressor wheel off, so what would be different about just changing the wheel? i know the housing and back plate have nothing to do with balancing it so what would i have to change. shouldn't it be fine just to put together?? and like i said im new to this part so take it easy on me lol

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Boosted_D you're not looking at the entire picture here. Stop looking at just the turbine housing and concentrate on the turbine wheel this is why he's going to experience issues. Without the change in turbine wheel/shaft, the compressor wheel he puts on will not keep up. Going with a .48A/R with a mismatched exhaust wheel that is too small will make it worse. That's why I mentioned earlier not to simply think in HOUSINGS.

I've been doing this long enough to realize when a mismatch like this is not physically possible, nor will it work to the efforts the OP is trying to achieve.

boosted_D

iTrader: (1)

Well straight from the mouth of a turbo expert OP, shodan does know turbos far more than I or most people on these forums do, and I was just thinking in terms of a/r, but the turbine wheel is probably tiny on that turbo. Sorry I didn't mean to miss lead you man.

In term of balance though with any turbo, the entire rotating assembly, shaft and both wheels has to be all precision balanced together for it to be correctly balanced, usually a small amount of material is ground off of both sides shaft and wheel nut to achieve perfect balance.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

boosteddohczc

thanks guys for all the replies. i really need to figure this turbo stuff out. now ive found turbos online that say .50 .48 with a 57 trim wheel and isn't that what mine would be? the turbo i have now is a garrett t3 .42 .48 60 trim with the 5 bolt down pipe. How do i tell what the exhaust wheel is?? cuz im starting to think that there is more then one size wheel in a .48 housing out there... ive found turbo setups on here that have a .48 ar exhaust side with a big compressor side making 350+ hp. the turbo setup thats on my car now says its good for 300+ hp now? man this stuff is confusing lol

boosted_D

iTrader: (1)

There are most definitly different sized T3 exhaust (turbine) wheels, and you can put different size wheels in different housing sizes.

Common housing sizes for T3 Turbines used on 4 cylinders:

.48 A/R
.63 A/R
.82 A/R

Exhaust wheels....

I BELIEVE there are 5 different common sizes, they are typically refered to as "stage" X rather than by trim size like you find on compressor wheel sizes.

Stage 1,2,3,4,5...........This is what you need to look for on these turbos you speak of, for example T3/T04E hybrid like you are refering to, here is a very common one:

Compressor: T04E / .50 A/R / 50 Trim
Turbine: T3 / .48 A/R (or .63 A/R) / STAGE 3 WHEEL.

I think the problem with the upgrading of your turbo as you proposed to do is that it has a tiny turbine wheel, probably something like stage1, when it needs to be like stage 3 or bigger to keep up with your revs and with the larger compressor you were going to install.

Maybe Shodan can chime in again and make sure my responce here is accurate...

boosteddohczc

ok sorry if this is getting annoying i just cant find any good info and im really interested in turbo sizing lately since that's really the only thing i haven't messed with. the thing is i have kids now so i don't have the money i used to so i lean more towards doing things myself then i even used to cuz its fun for me and ends up cheaper usually... now my buddy has a jdm d15 b that we built back in like o5-06 its a vitara build making 348 wheel hp on 25 psi with a ebay t3t04e turbo. the seals started to go in it after about a year so he bought a rebuild kit but when he took it apart he didn't know that the compressor wheel nut is left hand thread so he ended up snapping it lol. so he bought a garrett turbine shaft/wheel and had Turbo Solutions Engineering LLC put it together and balance it and its still holding up just fine... has anyone done this before cuz i can buy the same turbo for $110 and a rebuild kit like what i used in the turbo i have now for about $50. so what if i did that and had them balance it?? i just cant afford $800 to buy a real garrett t3t04e right now... i think Turbo Solutions Engineering LLC only charges $30 to do this. i could even have my garrett parts that i already bought put on it. any thoughts on this?

boosted_D

iTrader: (1)

It's possible, but a lot of times the ebay turbos are not going to accept garrett parts because they were built differently than a garrett unit, and no matter what your told, its a crap shoot gamble if the one you buy will accept real garrett parts or not.....

I know what its like not having the money man, trust me, I am about $1000 short of finishing my highest hp build right now, and money is tight, so I may not even get it done this summer....sucks *** to wait over a measly grand.....BUT I didn't compromise on the turbo I bought because it is one of the most important factors....

So, your proposing to spend about $200 to do this, and you dont need to spend $800+ to get a good turbo, you are 1/3 of the way there already, look up daves turbo, that is where I bought my new precision turbo, and the board sponsers here will probably price match if they are not at the same prices.

Look at the precision entry line, mine is a 3431E or 57 trim t3/t4, and you can also go one step bigger and get the 6031E or 60 trim t3/t4, $614 shipped to my door brand new.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

You're going to continue to get confused because there are infinite number of sizes and calculations that are needed. When you start to take pieces from different turbos and think you can get Turbo Solutions to be able to just "slap it together" hoping you're going to get a less expensive alternative to what a well-matched new unit, you're mistaken. Your buddy was lucky enough to find Turbo Solutions and was able to afford the new turbine and shaft to replace that E-bay turbo with. You can't do that with every turbo that you start off with. A perfect example is yours. There were very few things that could upgrade or fit with that because of the the size of the inlet volute of the compressor wheel housing, the turbine wheel/shaft that would still fit within the old cartridge (which there are none) as well as housing changes. Contrary to popular belief, a turbo's worth is rarely worth the sum of its parts; this means that just because you found part X and part Y to possibly fit into your old cartridge Z, doesn't mean it will be less expensive than if you purchased the turbo new or even slightly used.

Those of us that have done turbochargers for a while know it takes more than just machining knowledge to understand which compressor / turbine wheel combinations work. That's why we exist. unfortunately, you're not going to get a big tutorial about which are the best mix-match combinations to work all the time, especially with the older cartridge you have to start with. What we will suggest though is that you be patient, wait, save some duckets, and get the right turbo this time around instead of trying to create the ulitmate "mutt", thinking you're going to save money.

Now, if you want the ebay brand to be able to hold you over for a while until you can get the better turbocharger, go right ahead and roll the dice. But until you understand that many of these parts don't fit together to make a better match with your current cartridge, you're going to be spinning your wheels for a long time.

I can guide you to a few links to understand some terminology like inducer, exducer, trim, and cartridge size, but that's as far I, or anyone else is willing to go. Turbo professionals are around for a reason; its best to use them whenever possible.

boosteddohczc

ok thanks guys. i appreciate the help big time. this is why i asked cuz i didn't want to waste more money for no reason. well i guess its time to put some extra hours in and start saving for a new turbo. now in my old hatch i had a dohc zc built bottom end with 9.5:1 JE pistons and Eagle rods ported head with a real garrett t3t4e 57 trim same thing as my buddies ebay knock off and made 398whp and 325wtq. best time was a 11.6 @ 126mph on falkan azinas. my old man who is a v8 guy said it was imposable to make a lil 4cyl that fast but he about **** his pants when i took him for a ride. now this was back in 08 and hes starting to think its not possible again lol. so my goal is to be somewhere in the 400-450 range. any suggestions on a turbo that will do that on my b16 but will still b fun on the street too. my goal is to have saved enough and have it done sometime this summer.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Well. For that power range you could pay anything from $800-$900 in journal bearing or over $1300-$1500 in a steel ball-bearing or ceramic ball-bearing package. Once you have that goal in mind, (and you have the correct other equipment) then we can help. Right now you're putting the cart before the horse. check the other setups on here first with a B16 (There's an entire thread devoted to that potent little monster of an engine) and go from there..

boosted_D

iTrader: (1)

Just being budget minded, shodan, won't a precision 6031E be capable of that power goal? I think its precisions biggest entry turbo for the $600 price point.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

That's the problem. Its Big.. as in a mismatch like the original 60-1 was with the stage III wheel. If he must go Precision then he's better off with a SC4431 or used 5557 or 5857. You can find those in a lot of places lately.

http://hondamarketplace.com/showthre...Precision+5857