chevellegod

First off, let me apologize if this is in the wrong section. I'd also like to apologize for being the guy that asks this question despite similar questions all over the internet. I've searched and searched and have not found the specific answers I'm looking for.

So here are my questions:

I've got about 10,000 saved up. I'm looking to build my 92 Civic hatch into a moderate horsepower DD (I'd like to have a 350 HP tune for DD and a 400-450 hp tune for fun days)

So, I've found numerous builders who will build an engine for these numbers I'm looking for. It seems like a smart route because I know nothing about tuning and it seems as though a proper tune is as important if not more important than the build itself.

The two I'm considering

http://www.laskeyracing.com/shop/bseries.htm

http://www.kingmotorsports.com/c-318...s-process.aspx

442+ HP Pump gas build

Also with these builders can you tell me what an OEM build is? IS that just using standard factor parts?


So, if I'm going to be building a B18C Turbo. Would it be better to buy the shortblock and have the internals swapped vs buying a complete swap/long block set up since most the parts in the long block will be swapped out anyway?

What are the Necessary parts to be upgraded with this type of goal in mind?

My understanding is the parts to be upgraded would be as follow:

ARP Headstuds
Forged Pistons/Rods (I'm thinking CP)
Fuel Injectors 450/1000cc
Fuel Pump
ECU
Adjustable Cam Gears
Sleeves

I'm sure I'm forgetting something. Please keep in mind I would like this to be a reliable DD with these numbers. There are two parts to this question, what are the MUST be upgraded/replaced and what are the SMART idea to replace

So would it be wise to also have the crankshaft balanced? Headed Ported and Polished?

Also if I'm going to send the block to the tuner, is it better to buy a shortblock or longblock. I'm going to need the transmission, LSD, harnesses etc so should I just buy the complete swap?

I apologize for asking this question as I'm sure you guys answer this all the time. However, I'd greatly appreciate some valid answers and input.

Sorry one other thing I'd like to ask for input on:

What if I go a different route and swap the J32a2 I think it is? the 260 hp accord motor and turbo that? As they say there's no replacement for displacement...but I have a concern about aftermarket parts and if I can reasonably even fit a turbo in the engine bay with this engine.

Thanks for help, and I apologize for being a newbie and even further for possibly putting this in the wrong spot.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Well, yes. you are in the wrong section. Your title will be changed to reflect to do so.

Second, the stock internals of the B18C engine cannot handle the amount of power and torque you're looking for without upgraded components that can withstand the cylinder pressures and heat of forced induction. In other words, NO OEM SHORTBLOCK SHOULD BE USED FOR 440whp +. You will not find any B18C making that power without those aftermarket components.

Lastly. This is a LOT of vast information that you need to know, and the best thing to do is go to the GREY area of the FAQs to answer a lot of these questions. This is the type of forum that really responds to specific tech questions regarding forced induction (turbocharging /supercharging) and not a general overall synopsis. The FAQs shows what you need, how you need it, and what each component does.

It's good that you're starting off with pro-active thinking, now, you need to take that, and do some pro-active styled research. That means not only the FAQs, but look at other builds and how they were done, and if they meet some of the same criteria that you're looking for. If at all possible, take a ride or test drive someone that may have a turbocharged or supercharged platform that is similar to yours to get an idea as to if the power levels you're asking for are really what you need.

Look to your own resources in your area, (Shops, welders, fabricators, technicians, manuals, experienced people ) including your own mechanical inclination. Ask yourself who is going to help you put this all-together, and do you have the time/patience/budget to do this. This is something that you do not do to your every day car. If you need to go to work, get a friend or better yet, have another piece of transportation to get to work to help fund this..

Please put a location down (doesn't have to be exact) so that we don't have to guess whether or not something you need is in the U.S. or may be more difficult to obtain in another region. We don't know you, where you're from or your resources.

So, I'll move this to FI, change the title to something that is more thorough (please do that in any future threads you make, don't make them so generic, other people search this too) and let you get started. This will be YOUR build thread, so any further specific questions, need to be on this thread do not create a bunch of inquiry threads regarding the same project or bump 10 year old threads asking for the sam information. You'd be wasting your own time and ours.

Good luck. Welcome to H-T

chevellegod

I appreciate your response. I'm in Portland, Oregon.

I have done a lot of research. I read this article 500HP Stock-Block B16A - Boosted at 24 PSI - Honda Tuning Magazine about them making 500 hp on a basically stock b16. Obviously they didn't do it the "Right way" but the purpose was to show with proper tuning it could be done. So I did not think it would be a far stretch to think with the proper internals the same goal could be accomplished with a B18. I am aware that the stock internals will not handle this kind of power which is why I'm seeking answers as to what exactly needs to be replaced/upgraded to handle this type of power.

I assure you I have done tons of research. I can't find answers to specifically what I'm asking.

Now, I spent 6 years in the military as a diesel mechanic. So I do have mechanical knowledge, but as it appears as though there will need to be a lot of machining and more mechanical prowess than I have I will not be doing this myself. As for the time and budget it is not a problem. I've been saving for a year to do this. As I said I have 10 grand currently set aside for this project and I'm not afraid to spend more. To clarify the 10 grand is just for the Motor/build/labor. There are not many shops Except Laskey and Speed factory I think which are near me.

I also have another car which I'll be using during the duration of this build, so the length of time this build takes is not an issue for me. I want to do it right, as this has been a dream of mine since I was 16 (31 now) and this will be a car I keep forever.

I do appreciate your insight and your advice on how to move forward with this thread.

Thanks

2x0

A lot of your questions depend on how far you want to make that $10,000 go... because yes you can buy a completely assembled short block with forged internals, sleeves, what have you, but that will probably run you a good portion of your budget. Where as you could source the block and piece together the internals you want yourself, then take these to a shop for machining and assembly and it could save you quite a bit. Overall the more work you do yourself and piece parts you acquire and assemble yourself, the more you'll be able to do with your budget which will translate into being able to afford higher quality stuff for the engine build and turbo setup. People often forget to budget for all of the systems involved that need upgraded, such as clutch, fuel pump, engine management, etc. And that doesn't even factor putting that power to the ground, better tires, suspension, traction bar, and the list goes on.

At bare minimum for the block you will need upgraded rods, pistons, head and main studs. If going above 400whp, then I would advise sleeving or a CSS block. Head porting and polishing is not necessary, but anything you can do to improve flow will help you achieve your power goals more easily.

chevellegod

2x0

Thanks for your reply.

You are correct, quite frankly I want this to be done correctly so where as I could make this go further by doing it myself this is a long time dream of mine, so I want it to be done correctly. So I would like a shop to handle this. I realize I'm going to be spending quite a bit more to have it done this way. To clarify My limit is not 10,000. It's just what I have set aside for the engine part of this build. Depending on what parts need to be replaced/upgraded/changed will determine whether I have a shop do it, or do it myself. If it's just Pistons/rods/head studs I can do that myself. However, I've seen a couple videos online where when replacing rods with H beam they had to notch the block and that's not something I'm comfortable with.

So again the most important questions currently are:

to sustain 400-450 whp what parts MUST be replaced (with respect to the engine itself) What parts should be replaced to not just get by with bare minimums? The reason for this is I'm trying to decide what parts should/must be replaced to determine whether some friends and I can replace this ourselves, or whether it's best done by a shop. Obviously with respect to the tuning aspect of this I will need to go to a shop. I wish I knew some people that were local who were familiar with Honda's as I'd rather support the community and learn myself so that I would know for future points.

Again, I'm sorry for the vagueness I thought I had prepped a question that was specific, but apparently I've failed in that. I do realize that some of it is vague and that's probably because I'm not sure exactly how to propose it, or ask what I'm really trying too figure out.

2x0

That does help to clarify things. I think that $10K would be enough to purchase the entire engine completely assembled and ready to handle 450whp+. I know you can custom order the short block and head per your specifications from a few places like 4Piston. They would also be able to consult with you over the phone or via email on your build specs to make sure your desired goals are achieved.


4Piston B Series street short block

AZ_CIVIC

iTrader: (1)

You could do a GE Sleeved block, pistons, rods and assembly for probably $3000-$3500. I would suggest a really nice full Ferrea Valve Train, even if you don't intend on porting or polishing. For the power you are looking to make a good GSR transmission is all you really need but get a good LSD for it. I would buy a set of DSS 2.9 axles which will last you forever LOL, don't play with OEM or after market axle junk.

Good little fuel setup, ID1000 injectors, Hondata for tuning, pretty good suspension etc. Your 10k will go fast but if time is not an issue I would use the money wisely if that means you get things done but still have to save up and buy stuff later, do it.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

I think we found a home for the man.

In the meantime, the subtleties will be about engine management and most importantly, purpose. Purpose of the car is the one area that many don't really describe to others, and are rarely honest with themselves. They look at big top mounted manifolds, overly large turbochargers, improper intake manifolds, etc that are designed for the purpose of one kind of use, and not a system that is more "well-rounded" for different driving situations. that's the only part that you're going to struggle with, because there are more than several ways to build this, outside of those that are used to using Turbocharged Hondas for one purpose. So, in that regard, people like myself, AZ_CIVIC, JRCivic1, Lighteningteg, Autoworks, motoxxxman, boosted94gsr, Geis, and others are going to help steer you towards your goal, but to thine own self be true. You can't look at a lot of other setups and think "that's what I want", when their purpose of the car is obviously different than yours. I've found that Kingmotorsports wasn't what it used to be, and IMHO has given some bad advice by a few keyboard racers over the years. I hope that's changed, but that's kinda how I've seen them. Laskey does fantastic work, but remember, they're more drag-purpose oriented, and not used to a street monster with better Powerband throughout the rpm range.

The seasoned individuals that I've listed have gone through it all, and remember, shops want work.. so that means they'll try to convince you either way (hell sometimes I'm no exception) to go a particular direction. But that's only because that's what they've worked with the most and have seen the results that they believe that you want as well.

Also, turbo selection has become a process where it's almost political. So, your best bet is to garner your parts upgrade around the type of behaviour you want the car to have. Get the major components (get the quality stuff, but you don't need to go bankrupt) first, and everything will work in conjunction with those major components (Turbo, Intercooler, exhaust manifold, downpipe, aka "hot parts)) and the rest will fall into place. I agree $10K is pretty good, but think about your purpose for the car, and create a setup that allows you to change visions the most easily with the least parts replacement. For example, being in Oregon, you might as well sleeve and keep the CNC CSS WERX out of it, based upon the cost. You can also find empty sleeved blocks on the market , don't forget.

I think this will be fun, if you stick us.. you'll be fine.

chevellegod

Thanks again for the reply.

I'm definitely feeling like this could be a good home. I was prepared for flaming and didn't get the degree I'd expected. Haha, but I tried not to be like "I want 900 hp, help."

To be quite honest, it will be a DD street driven car, with some street races here and there, some highway pulls, and probably a few trips to the strip every now and then. I don't have the money to track it, although it's what I'd love to do. I just won't have the money to be tearing it down and rebuilding parts often. Which is why I want to buy quality parts with form/function in mind and do it right. So I don't have to do it over again. Since it won't be tracked, a large turbo isn't a real concern of mine, as I expect I'll need one for the numbers I'm looking and it won't be tracked, so turbo lag isn't a real concern. I'd like to have this thing in the 10 sec 1/4 mile range if possible. I believe that's feasible based on my HP target and goals. That being said my research has told me that for a street honda anything over 400 pretty much spins the tires and I imagine having a large turbo applying high boost isn't going to help that. I'm open to suggestions here. Ideally, I'd like to split the gap between something like a 28/T3/T4/6262 turbo. I don't think the 28 is going to work with my goals. I think the 6262 might be a bit much. The t3/t4 combo has so many different options I realize that's not very specific. So a Middle of the road turbo which would have minimal lag, but supply good hp would be ideal.

Thanks again for the honesty and the steering in the right direction here.

chevellegod

Also, I'm glad to hear your opinion about Kingmotorsports in it's current state because they were someone I was seriously considering. IT seems like most people are going the KMod/Ktuned and Speedfactory.

Chance EG

Do NOT purchase anything through Kmod. Goldiewang from this board would be able to fill you in more. Just google "Kmod review" and you'll find a bunch of stuff there.

4Piston street block would be great for your goals, with the CSS option for added sleeve guarantee. Other people here seem to be mentioning Laskey and Golden Eagle, both of which are also great and offer proper full ductile iron sleeves. Just a question of how much money you want to put into it - Don't overbuild the engine to the point where you have nothing left for a proper turbo system.

Chance EG

Doubleposting (because I'm a terrible person)

BackroadCRV had a great build thread last year. PERFECT example of how to keep things relatively cheap/minimal without cutting any corners and still getting a rock solid reliable system:

https://honda-tech.com/forums/forced...hread-3297958/

Other people in this thread seem to be answering a lot of your engine build questions. As for the turbo side of things, I would highly recommend looking into Go-Autoworks for turbo kit options. They're one of the only remaining companies making full kits for the B series, and they're easily some of the best on the market at a very good price point.

Full-Race also has a couple good kits available, but would likely be a bit overkill for your build and also a bit more costly. I think they're down to only 2 kits remaining for our cars with B engines.

AZ_CIVIC

iTrader: (1)

10 sec 1/4 mile range is possible but I would say more likely high 10's. I think you need a little more than 400-450 to get you there personally especially if you want this to be a street car which I assume you may want to keep ac, interior, etc. I will let Shodan step in here because it's been a long time since I ran this power which back then I did on the old Garrett t3/t4 57trim turbo but I'm sure there are a ton of better options to use. If you were looking for Drag Only 1000whp I could help you out with turbo selection LOL.

With the motor situation 4piston, Speed Factory and some others do great work, I personally use Locash CNC and TSR for my engine builds because these guys are local, they have stupid fast cars and tons of experience but can build you anything from mild to wild. Now since you have money and don't want to cut corners I would always recommend a sleeved block over CSS.

chevellegod

Laskey, would be a good option for me as they are close.I did look at 4Pistons prior to posting and after and it seems as though they specialize in Race Engines most of which are way overkill for what I'm needing ( I think?).

Go AutoWerks was something I put on the list, though I had also put RevHard on there as they were recommended by many. Though recently it seems as though people are going away from them. Golden Eagle seems to have it's name in everything, but it seems as though it's a common go to (which usually is a good thing, but it might also be because it'll accomplish most things and is cheaper than big name brands) Which is fine...but not if it's not going to hold up. I was told CP pistons are the best. I Was also looking at Crower or Manley rods, and I was thinking H beam, but now the I beams seem to be taking over if you can afford them.

I just don't want to buy a bunch of things I don't need, but I want to buy everything that is required as well as would be recommended. For instance I may not need upgraded valves, but for this much horsepower and high rpms I believe it'd be a wise decision. So, I'm lost as to what is NEEDED and what's recommended. I hope this makes sense.

Yes, I would like to keep AC, PS would be nice, but I'm not gonna cry about it.

chevellegod

Also, it sounds like I'm going to be replacing a lot of the internal block parts, so should I stay away from the longblock/complete swaps and just buy the short block send it off and then buy the remaining pieces I'll need after?

Chance EG

Depending on shipping the block round trip CSS doesn't always save you that much money either - Sounds like OP may have some good sleeving options local to him.

I'm pretty sure you can hit mid/high 10s around the 400WHP mark, assuming a good set of tires and launch. Depends on a lot of factors though. I'm not big into the drag scene at all so huge citation needed here with my estimates, but that sounds about right.

2x0

This is how I would do it, yes.

For turbo, I would think a t3/t4 would be a good low cost option that will get you to 400+, or for a little more a gt3071r

AZ_CIVIC

iTrader: (1)

So I would not order a stock block just to have it torn down, I would buy a bare block, with crank and matching mains since you will be building the block ayway. This is the best route and most companies can supply the block for less than buying one from HMO.

As for Golden Eagle sleeves I was running 1200whp with them and it's not a cheap or crappy company. Sleeving a block for 500whp is a good idea, I personally would not use CSS because you are still running stock sleeves. I like CP pistons I used them on my build and they worked very well, I would run a 10:1 compression piston, most will tell you GE rods will work but at the time I opted for Manley Turbo Tuff rods just in case I wanted to go up in power which was a smart move because I went from a 600whp build to 1200 over a 5 year period. You can use the stock crank, buy a stock water pump/oil pump.

For the head you can go with stock ports but you for sure want to work with an upgraded valve train, now you will hear a lot of what you can use and all that good stuff. For me I opted to go with the best no matter if it were overkill or not. That really is up to you on how you want to do things, for me I didn't want to take a chance with what I needed at the time but wanted to get something that I wouldn't have to worry about. I went with a full Ferrea Valve Train so I didn't have to think about if my valves or springs were good or not.

There are a lot of things people say are overkill but for me I built a motor capable of 1000whp when I was only trying to achieve 600whp, that way I wouldn't have to worry about my motor.

Again this is all up to you, if you want to build a motor that can just handle what you are looking for people can give you those suggestions, if you don't mind spending a little more then we can suggest what will last a long time.

AZ_CIVIC

iTrader: (1)

Realistically 400whp will not be getting a mid 10.

chevellegod

This is a response I was looking for. Thank you very much. I imagine that later on I will be upgrading it. That's why I'm trying to start with high quality parts and working my way through. I imagine it'll be a while before I feel the need to go any higher, but I've always been of the mindset of getting more than I need so I don't have to replace the same part with a better one or end up breaking parts because I cheaped out. Too often I hear up people dropping valves ( I think it's called?) and destroying things. Lets be honest too, as Honda fans we love our Vtec and the high revving engines. Combine those factors with boost and upgrading the valve train is probably a wise choice.

I appreciate the specifics of the suggestions in this post. Thank you!

chevellegod

Let's not get to hung up on the 10s 1/4 time. It was just a goal but not a requirement. Ultimately 400-500 whp reliably as a DD is the goal. With a couple tunes 1 for the street approx 300-350 which it will be DD and street raced on. And once a month or so at the track where I can turn it up to 4-450ish.

I wish I lived in the mids/east part of the states. Too often you have wonderful shops and a lot of the members of this site tend too offer help and I would love to pay someone to help me piece this together, and do the install together as I love wrenching and would really love to learn and be involved in the process.

AZ_CIVIC

iTrader: (1)

For me the valve train is one of the most important, I have had a valve ruin two motors in the past. Last time it happened was 2012 I had just bought an 84.5mm Darton Sleeved block, Eagle Rods, CP Pistons, brand new block. Had a fully ported head and decent valve train so I thought, had just had new valves put in my head that I had been running for years. Anyway about 800 miles in I heard a weird noise and as I was entering the freeway heard that dreadful noise of something breaking off internally and that was it. Not sure what happened but in the end there was a busted valve head sitting in a piston which ruined my head and motor.

Using cheaper aftermarket valves cost me thousands in the end, after that I decided to use the best out there no matter if I REALLY needed it or not. Since then I have use Ferrea 6000 Comp Plus valves and everything else Ferrea and the valve train has really lasted. Even last year making 1000plus WHP I had a rod bearing failure which exploded my block at 10,500 RMPS mid track and I had a piston hit into the head and all it did was slightly bend a couple valves. Cheaper crap would have probably broke off and took even more out.

Just years and years of trail and error have made me really think about what I buy before I do it.

chevellegod

Sounds like maybe I should PM you and see if I can convince you to put together a build list for me on what you would purchase if you were me seeking my goals. Am I going the wrong way with the B18C? Should I be looking at an LSVTec or a b20 w b18/b16 head? I would certainly be grateful for any specific parts you would suggest I purchase. I'm 100% with you on the valvetrain.

AZ_CIVIC

iTrader: (1)

2x0