<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by champLSinteg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I dont think many people shift into 5th gear therefore I dont see how they would shift more. You need to size up everything so that you are maxing out 4th gear through the traps. If you dont have the power and you go through the traps in the middle of fourth gear with an LS then you need to go with smaller slick and shorter gears.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Thread starter said his car will be only a DD,you schould read the whole thread before you say something stupid like this.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tealegg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">b16 hands down. i have b16 hydro trannys in both my cars. DD and race/weekend car. in my weekend car i went from GSR to B16 and the b16 with slicks is FOR sure the way to go. if you are worried about High RPM's on the high way. dont drive so fast. with my Snow Tires 195 55 15 i cruse at 70 at 4k which isnt bad at all. for b16 trans.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Why schould i do not drive so fast? Here in germany we don´t have speed limits on High way

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by gogunkergorilla &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The higher the power the longer the gears need to be. You guys may not realize that b16 tranny was designed for more torque amplification on a low torque engine. Turbo engines have a lot more torque and do not need to take advantage of this. If your using a stock b16 tranny on a high hp engine you are likely not utilizing the engines full potential (limiting power so you can get traction, shifting more than necessary).

One of the best things to do utilize more power and get better traction is either to use a larger wheel diameter or lower the final drive. This keeps the ratios close for narrow powerbands, and lowers the torque amplification (which is useless on high torque engines).</TD></TR></TABLE>

Fortunaly somebody knows what he´s talking about.
it is sad to see that the most of the people here like more the bang faktor an rather prefer to spin tyres.
Perhaps they just wanna mesure them ***** against eachoder and see wich one has the biggest one

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by vti2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Why schould i do not drive so fast? Here in germany we don´t have speed limits on High way </TD></TR></TABLE>

yea but here in the u.s. we have speed limits and i have no prob tackin 3800rpm at 70 on the interstate. Its a 4cyl there made to rev

i've had both a ls and b16 trans in my car. IMO the ls just flat out sucks, some say the third gear in a ls is fun but when your on a street setup and going from 2nd to 3rd and watching the car beside u pull on ya as you shift into that longer gear is no fun the b16 trans will keep you in the upper rpms alot better and thats why most track cars go for this trans. and yes i know he said dd, but a fun street car is no fun without acceleration

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by gogunkergorilla &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The higher the power the longer the gears need to be. You guys may not realize that b16 tranny was designed for more torque amplification on a low torque engine. Turbo engines have a lot more torque and do not need to take advantage of this. If your using a stock b16 tranny on a high hp engine you are likely not utilizing the engines full potential (limiting power so you can get traction, shifting more than necessary).
One of the best things to do utilize more power and get better traction is either to use a larger wheel diameter or lower the final drive. This keeps the ratios close for narrow powerbands, and lowers the torque amplification (which is useless on high torque engines).</TD></TR></TABLE>

well its a proven fact that the b16 tans is faster in acceleration (even with more shiftiing) than the ls trans. sounds like to me that the ls trans is limiting power....

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by vti2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Thread starter said his car will be only a DD,you schould read the whole thread before you say something stupid like this.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I realize he wants it for a DD smart ***! What I pointing out is that its in the setup. If the OP is worried about high rpms on the highway then just swap in an LS fifth and be done with it. 1.8 liters is small so you make up for it with gearing.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by champLSinteg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I realize he wants it for a DD smart ***! What I pointing out is that its in the setup. If the OP is worried about high rpms on the highway then just swap in an LS fifth and be done with it. 1.8 liters is small so you make up for it with gearing.</TD></TR></TABLE>

perfect solution why didnt i think of that especially since he already has the ls trans

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by gogunkergorilla &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The higher the power the longer the gears need to be. You guys may not realize that b16 tranny was designed for more torque amplification on a low torque engine. Turbo engines have a lot more torque and do not need to take advantage of this. If your using a stock b16 tranny on a high hp engine you are likely not utilizing the engines full potential (limiting power so you can get traction, shifting more than necessary).

One of the best things to do utilize more power and get better traction is either to use a larger wheel diameter or lower the final drive. This keeps the ratios close for narrow powerbands, and lowers the torque amplification (which is useless on high torque engines).</TD></TR></TABLE>

Haha. This post is great. There are so many backwards things in here.

The B16 tranny is setup to give you the increased torque mutliplication, because it is needed on that engine to accelerate quicker. So image if you could use this in combination with a high hp/trq setup. IF you can get the power to the ground and can rev high enough/combined with the proper wheel diameter, this is the most ideal combo for going the quickest. NOT the lower final drive....that does NOT keep the power band narrow. Nor does the use of a shorter geared tranny limit power for traction purposes.

Some people choose the LS tranny for higher hp/trq setups because with the shorter geared tranny they either spin too much or have to shift to 5th gear going through the traps or the combo of the two. If you can remove the spinning issue (boost by gear, proper suspension/tire setup) and you can rev it high enough or run a larger diameter wheel, then the shorter setup is going to accelerate quicker. If you can't run a large enough wheel diameter or rev it high enough....the GSR tranny would be the next set up for a stock tranny.

If you are annoyed by the B16 gearing in 5th at higher speeds/highway driving, put LS 5th gears in it.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Blown90hatcH &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Haha. This post is great. There are so many backwards things in here.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

You have a lot to learn about some basic physics buddy. I couldn't find anything all that bs that refutes anything I said.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Blown90hatcH &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
The B16 tranny is setup to give you the increased torque mutliplication, because it is needed on that engine to accelerate quicker. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Well I agree with this

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Blown90hatcH &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
So image if you could use this in combination with a high hp/trq setup. IF you can get the power to the ground and can rev high enough/combined with the proper wheel diameter, this is the most ideal combo for going the quickest. </TD></TR></TABLE>

The tractability of a wheel is directly related to the amount of torque applied to it,its weight, and the tires coefficient of friction. Because of that relationship low gearing on an already high torque engine in a lightweight vehicle causes nothing but traction problems.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Blown90hatcH &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
NOT the lower final drive....that does NOT keep the power band narrow</TD></TR></TABLE>

That is incorrect. The final drive does not change the difference between gear ratios. It simply lengthens them all. If you think you can prove that wrong without violating physics, be my guest. And by the way, you say running a larger wheel diameter helps, but lowering the final drive has the same effect.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Blown90hatcH &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Nor does the use of a shorter geared tranny limit power for traction purposes.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Do I have to go into an explaination about this so people can finally understand whats going on?

There is a maximum amount of torque that can be applied to the wheels before there will be traction problems. There are some solutions though such as increasing or decreasing the variables I mentioned about tractability. I'm assuming you don't want to add weight since it probably will be trasfered away from the wheels anyway during acceleration. The contact patch or coefficient of friction can also be improved to a certain degree. So then either the wheel can be made larger to take advantage of the torque available or the torque output from the engine must be reduced. Which one is more beneficial? Well, consider a small wheel and a large wheel spinning at the same speed, the larger wheel will accomplish more work in the same span of time (i.e. accelerate faster). As long as torque is constant along the rpm range the rate of acceleration will be constant. The problem is, the larger wheel will also transfer less torque to the ground but you can compensate by turning up the boost and bringing the torque back up to the traction threshold. Enough said for now.

Oh and longer gears does not necessarily mean wider ratios.

 

One other thing I want to mention is if a lower final drive is used it will also affect the higher gears as well. But traction becomes less of a problem after a certain mph so the gears after that can be lowered to increase the torque amplification effect and improve acceleration.

 

this is going to get interesting.... well i think i'm siding with blown90hatch on this one. not only is his thread count close to 100,000 (which may mean nothing) but read below his avatar he knows his ****

 

That is the difference between finding things on google and studying and learning them in college/real world.

Correct....but don't fix the problem by stretching out the gear ratios. Fix it with better suspension/tire combo, boost by gear, etc. I agree that in certain cases, runner the larger wheel or lower final drive is needed to get the trq multiplier down.....but on setups such as most street driven higher hp/trq fwd cars, the shorter B16/ITR gear ratios are usable.

I never said the final drive changes the gear ratios. You said run a lower final drive to keep a narrow powerband. And I said run the larger wheel diameter if you NEED it in the case of mph purposes or traction.

You have the correct understanding on traction and the components relating to it, but you are missing the testing results from our fwd cars. In testing in higher hp/trq fwd cars, you can run the shorter B16/ITR gears with a properly sized tire and suspension setup and still walk the line of wheel spin and traction. So your more beneficial question is directly related to the application. There is a limit on the tire size that you can run on honduh fwd cars, especially without any major mods and asthetic eye sores and also for street cars.

Exactly! That is why using the boost by gear allows you to have the increased trq multiplier in higher gears using the B16/ITR tranny, but still have the adjustability on the trq multiplier/engine trq output to lower the boost where you need to obtain the equal balance on wheel spin/traction in the lower speed gears.

 

After these other posts perhaps this seems pretty simplistic, but the way I see it is:

B16 = get into boost quicker
LS = stay in boost longer

Someone was talking about how the B16 isn't good if you got 500hp...not to be argumentative but what relevance is that? This is a DD, likely stock-block and running 10 psi or less. He won't make near that, and IMO it's asinine to make that a goal for a dd anyhow, totally impractical in every way.

Yes, as was stated the B16 trans "was designed to amplify torque on the torqueless B16"...but, isn't that what he has??? Until boost comes on, it's still the same torqueless motor that needs help from the gearing to get the car moving off the line and into boost.

I just don't see the point of building around top speed for a dd, seriously how much time will you spend above 100mph? Much more likely to be hitting it coming off a stoplight or even going from a 2nd gear roll or something. He'll make 300hp or so, the traction will be manageable, get an LSD or something.

As for freeway stuff, it's mostly whether you can take the noise. Economy will suffer only slightly, it's been shown that throttle tip-in has as much to do with mileage as rpms. The low rpms makes you have to hit the pedal a bit harder to maintain speed (assuming you're not in boost at cruising speed). At higher rpm you're making more torque/hp (duh) so you don't have to get on it as hard.

 

dear god what have i started

 

We have a diferent world here in Germany, most of our races happens on the high way because we don´t have speed limits here, and when we race with our hondas than we race angainst Porsches oder RS4, RS6, SL55 AMG, Ferrari, M5, M3 and all of these cars run away more the 100mph, so it ist pointless to run against them from 60 to 100mph, we run mostly from 60 to 160mph against them and i wanna beat them till the and not lust for 40mph, this doesn´t mean nothing here. We run all on street tyres wich is a bigger issue to fwd honda than for all those awd Audis and Porsches rwd BMW´s and Mercedes.
So we need a tranny with longer gears or these cars will bust your ***

 

Oh man, not this damn argument again.

Blown90Hatch is correct.

Although using a short geared tranny will raise concern with traction problems, DO NOT use longer gears as a fix to the problem. Instead, use the things already listed (boost by gear, tire size, etc. GET CREATIVE) and find a solution. Yes, they're are only a handful of things you can do since it's a daily driver, so it's hard to argue what's better for YOU. But in an all out race scenario (which I'm aware this isn't) shorter gears will accelerate quicker than longer gears. I guess it's basic physics haha. It acts as a torque multiplier. Its going to act as a torque multiplier whether its on a low hp car or a high hp car regardless. Dealing with the problems associated with more power is part of the game. Don't take away from the cars potential by taking away from the cars power.

Then again, this is a street car (which could still benefit to an extent) and it's up to the original OP to find out what suits him best.

To sum it up:
Shorter - torque multiplier, quicker acceleration, and wheelspin as a result

Longer - better gas mileage, quieter driving, and you get to be part of the "I stay in boost" myth club.

But hey, what do I know?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by boostedDA &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Oh man, not this damn argument again.

Blown90Hatch is correct.

Although using a short geared tranny will raise concern with traction problems, DO NOT use longer gears as a fix to the problem. Instead, use the things already listed (boost by gear, tire size, etc. GET CREATIVE) and find a solution. Yes, they're are only a handful of things you can do since it's a daily driver, so it's hard to argue what's better for YOU. But in an all out race scenario (which I'm aware this isn't) shorter gears will accelerate quicker than longer gears. I guess it's basic physics haha. It acts as a torque multiplier. Its going to act as a torque multiplier whether its on a low hp car or a high hp car regardless. Dealing with the problems associated with more power is part of the game. Don't take away from the cars potential by taking away from the cars power.

Then again, this is a street car (which could still benefit to an extent) and it's up to the original OP to find out what suits him best.

To sum it up:
Shorter - torque multiplier, quicker acceleration, and wheelspin as a result

Longer - better gas mileage, quieter driving, and you get to be part of the "I stay in boost" myth club.

But hey, what do I know?</TD></TR></TABLE>

THere are different configurations for different purposes (ie. drag racing, autocross, street) so I am assuming you are talking about drag racing.

Given that, explain why racing transmissions are configured with longer low gears and shorter high gears. Also, explain how they are able to trap at 160-170+ mph in forth gear. Do you think they are reving to 12000-13000rpm?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Blown90hatcH &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Boost by gear, better suspension setup, better tires.....don't bandaid it by putting the LS tranny in the car. </TD></TR></TABLE>



Though the guy is correct that better acceleration is only attained with shorter gears provided the traction is there... so we must find ways to keep traction. These are some decent ones. ^^^

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by gogunkergorilla &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

THere are different configurations for different purposes (ie. drag racing, autocross, street) so I am assuming you are talking about drag racing.

Given that, explain why racing transmissions are configured with longer low gears and shorter high gears. Also, explain how they are able to trap at 160-170+ mph in forth gear. Do you think they are reving to 12000-13000rpm?</TD></TR></TABLE>


i think you answered your question in the first sentence. Ppl that run racing transmissions are usually running a custom gear setup

 

If long gears are so bad for acceleration then why are the fastest cars running 4 gear configurations capable of 200 mph as opposed to adding more gears to reach that speed? On a b16 tranny you would have to rev over 12000 rpm to reach that.

 

Probably because of the amount of power and torque they make. B/c with that power and torque they will exceed a certain mph and need longer gears to get there and fully untilize it all. But for a daily driven car or a 500whp car the b16 trans is fine for the trap speeds it will put down based on tire sizing and rev limits.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SpoolnG2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Probably because of the amount of power and torque they make. B/c with that power and torque they will exceed a certain mph and need longer gears to get there and fully untilize it all. But for a daily driven car or a 500whp car the b16 trans is fine for the trap speeds it will put down based on tire sizing and rev limits. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Thank you, thats correct. Longer gearing is the way to go for high hp cars. (and I don't mean the LS tranny)

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by gogunkergorilla &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If long gears are so bad for acceleration then why are the fastest cars running 4 gear configurations capable of 200 mph as opposed to adding more gears to reach that speed? On a b16 tranny you would have to rev over 12000 rpm to reach that.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Who are the fastest cars? Name them. Most of them are running four gear configurations because they are running a handcuff. And if you are talking SFWD Honduhs.....they can not reach 200mph unless they rev to 20k. Most of them rev to 10 - 11k with 25" OD tires. http://www.autocrossing.com/cgi-bin/gearcalc.cgi That will go 150-160mph with the ITR tranny. I am running a 26" tire and rev to 10k. My street car went 150mph in the 1/4 with the ITR tranny. I just switched setups and installed GSR 4th gears. That will allow me to go where the car is going to....160mphish.

I used the ITR tranny on my old setup and also compared it with the LS. No changes.....just tranny. Car went 1/2 second faster with the ITR.....10.10 vs. 10.60s

 

/\ That makes sense to me.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Blown90hatcH &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Who are the fastest cars? Name them. Most of them are running four gear configurations because they are running a handcuff. And if you are talking SFWD Honduhs.....they can not reach 200mph unless they rev to 20k. Most of them rev to 10 - 11k with 25" OD tires. http://www.autocrossing.com/cgi-bin/gearcalc.cgi That will go 150-160mph with the ITR tranny. I am running a 26" tire and rev to 10k. My street car went 150mph in the 1/4 with the ITR tranny. I just switched setups and installed GSR 4th gears. That will allow me to go where the car is going to....160mphish.

I used the ITR tranny on my old setup and also compared it with the LS. No changes.....just tranny. Car went 1/2 second faster with the ITR.....10.10 vs. 10.60s</TD></TR></TABLE>

I don't know if your too stupid to realize but everything I've been saying all along you just said you do and your arguing with me about it . Go back to my first post, I suggested a larger wheel diameter and lower final drive. Ideally a lower final drive as opposed to a larger wheel since it will have less inertial mass. Either way, higher hp cars run longer gearing via wheel diameter, final drive or changing the gears altogether. The LS tranny just sucks because the gears are spaced too far apart which is why a b16 or ITR tranny is the best place to start.