Better than OEM knock control?

 
Old 01-26-2012, 10:05 AM
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Default Better than OEM knock control?

Just wondering if anybody knows of a better than factory solution for knock monitoring for your typical B-series, or is the Honda knock sensor still the way to go?
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Old 01-26-2012, 10:07 AM
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Default Re: Better than OEM knock control?

The only ones I remember using were the J&S Knock control sensors. They were fantastic as knock control on a couple TA Supras I used to mess around with.

take a peek.

http://www.jandssafeguard.com/safeguard.html
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Old 01-26-2012, 10:41 AM
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Default Re: Better than OEM knock control?

Or if you have the cash...

http://www.kistler.com/ID_en-sg/13_P...t-in-case.html

Peak cylinder pressure meter, It's how the F1 engineers do it.

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Old 01-26-2012, 12:16 PM
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Default Re: Better than OEM knock control?

Originally Posted by VTC_CiViC View Post
Just wondering if anybody knows of a better than factory solution for knock monitoring for your typical B-series, or is the Honda knock sensor still the way to go?
Thats a great question....i no way condon ebay but saw this on here.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Knock-gauge-..._Parts&vxp=mtr

This is from lithuania or something i wouldnt advise using it...but the concept seems like a good idea

Dont know how well it works but pretty neat if it does work, you can also have a analog output added to it to maybe make some sort of detonation cut for use with a standalone management system. Or use the output to take timing out when detonation is detected,

I mean we have boost cut and even lean protection, detonation cut seems like a good idea. It seems with the analog output you would be able to acheive this. Dont quote me on this tho its only a idea. seems pretty acheivable tho
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Old 01-26-2012, 12:19 PM
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Default Re: Better than OEM knock control?

Originally Posted by kbouchard1092 View Post
Thats a great question....i no way condon ebay but saw this on here.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Knock-gauge-..._Parts&vxp=mtr

This is from lithuania or something i wouldnt advise using it...but the concept seems like a good idea

Dont know how well it works but pretty neat if it does work, you can also have a analog output added to it to maybe make some sort of detonation cut for use with a standalone management system.

this thing reminds me of the autometer "air/fuel" XMAS tree gauges.
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Old 01-26-2012, 12:24 PM
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Default Re: Better than OEM knock control?

Yea it looks crazy...but i think its a great idea. Plus tailoring in the analog output to youre management you could get creative IE. Detonation cut, pull timing when detonation is detected. Seems like pretty good logic and making a set-up that much safer.
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Old 01-26-2012, 12:39 PM
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Default Re: Better than OEM knock control?

What is wrong with Lithuania?

The stock sensor isn't very accurate... There are plenty of options: MSD, J&S, KS Racing, Phormula, Kistler, ect... Plenty of options - you can even make your own. If you don't want to deal with all the electronics there is always the old "DET-can" method.
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Old 01-26-2012, 12:48 PM
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Default Re: Better than OEM knock control?

nothing is wrong with the country, id just be a little cautious buying parts manufactured there. Thats just my personal opinion i have no personal experience with them...no different then how i would feel buying parts manufactured in china well when it comes to parts for my car.
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Old 01-26-2012, 12:54 PM
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Default Re: Better than OEM knock control?

The problem with the J&S is its 10 years old and it’s a piggy back. I prefer control over the complete ignition system including knock retard through my EMS system. There’s no reason a modern EMS system can't leverage 25+ year old technology.

Currently all of the OEM ECU based solutions are ineffective using OEM knock control. AEM EMS can make use of the sensor but a new "base line" is required to eliminate normal operating noise. I thought this method was effective but many say the OEM knock sensor is inaccurate once the engine is upgraded (larger bore and forged internals). MeqaSquirt can use an add-on called KnockSense. Its a Bosch Knock sensor (same sensor used by J&S) that has a broader frequency range and can be tuned for the specific bore and MS can actually use this data to effectively retard ignition.

Knock is the most important condition to control yet it’s the least monitored. KnockSense sells a universal controller that can light a warning light and give you a 5v output that you can log with any EMS. You make a low/no boost run with very conservative ignition timing and dial in the sensitivity with this baseline. Now knock volts above this baseline is considered real knock. It’s not perfect and it cant retard ignition but at least its a warning and you can tune with it.
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Old 01-26-2012, 01:55 PM
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Default Re: Better than OEM knock control?

Originally Posted by Muckman View Post
Knock is the most important condition to control yet it’s the least monitored. .
Agreed....Good information as well. I think detonation cut would be HUGE. Or like at least use it too pull timing . Its definalty something i would be interested in doing.

Im in for more information on this...im sure someone is doing it. Seems like a great idea. On my next tune i planned on having the Lean protection set-up once i have the wideband wired into the S300. This seems like it would be additional protection if they had a detonation cut. Its a little out of my leauge tho not sure if the S300 has that option to adjust timing or Cut fuel/igniton based on certain detonation levels. But seems plausible
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Old 01-26-2012, 02:09 PM
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Default Re: Better than OEM knock control?

Originally Posted by kbouchard1092 View Post
Agreed....Good information as well. I think detonation cut would be HUGE. Or like at least use it too pull timing . Its definalty something i would be interested in doing.

Im in for more information on this...im sure someone is doing it. Seems like a great idea. On my next tune i planned on having the Lean protection set-up once i have the wideband wired into the S300. This seems like it would be additional protection if they had a detonation cut. Its a little out of my leauge tho not sure if the S300 has that option to adjust timing or Cut fuel/igniton based on certain detonation levels. But seems plausible
In theory all of this would be great, the trouble is a knock sensor is a microphone calibrated to the frequency of knock by the OEM. As you make any mechanical change, cams, piston, forced induction, etc. the frequency of knock changes. Thus, the factory knock sensor is no longer calibrated correctly. This means that you could be experience a pre-ignition/knock event and the sensor may not detect it, or it may give you a knock event indication and for a phantom knock event... The RIGHT way to do it would be to have some sort of peak cylinder pressure system using some sort of ion sensing technology, the only options for this exceed $40,000 PER CYLINDER at this time. Thus, only at the highest forms of motorsport or at the OEM development level is this technology utilized.
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Old 01-26-2012, 02:12 PM
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Default Re: Better than OEM knock control?

Originally Posted by Muckman View Post
The problem with the J&S is its 10 years old and itís a piggy back. I prefer control over the complete ignition system including knock retard through my EMS system. Thereís no reason a modern EMS system can't leverage 25+ year old technology.

Currently all of the OEM ECU based solutions are ineffective using OEM knock control. AEM EMS can make use of the sensor but a new "base line" is required to eliminate normal operating noise. I thought this method was effective but many say the OEM knock sensor is inaccurate once the engine is upgraded (larger bore and forged internals). MeqaSquirt can use an add-on called KnockSense. Its a Bosch Knock sensor (same sensor used by J&S) that has a broader frequency range and can be tuned for the specific bore and MS can actually use this data to effectively retard ignition.

Knock is the most important condition to control yet itís the least monitored. KnockSense sells a universal controller that can light a warning light and give you a 5v output that you can log with any EMS. You make a low/no boost run with very conservative ignition timing and dial in the sensitivity with this baseline. Now knock volts above this baseline is considered real knock. Itís not perfect and it cant retard ignition but at least its a warning and you can tune with it.
There are a few systems that have a recalibration function, these systems do work much better then the OEM/piggyback solutions. LINK ECU offers one as well. The system you describe does sound like a pretty good consumer grade option.
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Old 01-26-2012, 02:19 PM
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Default Re: Better than OEM knock control?

interesting...i guess thats why i never hear people doing this. Guess ill just stick to boost cut and lean protection for additional safety measures

i would have thought a quailty knock sensor (non-oem) with a 0-5 v analog output could be used to at least have some sort of cut that at a certian threshold (voltage) could create some type of cut (like boost cut does when you hit youre boost limit) This doesnt seem like it would be too hard incoporating this to a EMS. Its in essence the same thing they do for lean protection with the s300 but with a O2 output vs in this case a knock sensor

only giving my logic here, i could very well be wrong. It happens. Thats how u learn
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Old 01-26-2012, 02:33 PM
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Default Re: Better than OEM knock control?

Originally Posted by kbouchard1092 View Post
interesting...i guess thats why i never hear people doing this. Guess ill just stick to boost cut and lean protection for additional safety measures

i would have thought a quailty knock sensor (non-oem) with a 0-5 v analog output could be used to at least have some sort of cut that at a certian threshold (voltage) could create some type of cut (like boost cut does when you hit youre boost limit) This doesnt seem like it would be too hard incoporating this to a EMS. Its in essence the same thing they do for lean protection with the s300 but with a O2 output vs in this case a knock sensor

only giving my logic here, i could very well be wrong. It happens. Thats how u learn
You can and some do, it is just very difficult to setup and you can still have phantom knock issues causing unwanted anomalies in the running of the engine. As Muckman mentioned, AEM has a somewhat difficult system that can do this, as do several other ECU manufactures. There are a few 3rd party options that could potentially be integrated with a bit of work, but these are also not perfect. As usual, the best option is the most difficult and expensive. I personally have a Link G4 knock indicator. It can not log internally, nor can it output a 0-5v linear signal for logging, but users are having good luck with its self calibrating fuzzy logic and not reporting many instances of phantom knock. Not perfect, but better then a stick in the eye.
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Old 10-08-2015, 03:20 PM
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Default Re: Better than OEM knock control?

Bringing this back from the dead.

Did any one setup a better knock sensor on the honda with AEM.

I was reading and miata guys go with a saturn knock sensor , same as used by js for their bore option 21021879 .

i was looking at the knocksense unit, but having an aem, i would think this would provide a much better base. key is finding out the settings for each knock sensor.
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