Better than OEM knock control?
Just wondering if anybody knows of a better than factory solution for knock monitoring for your typical B-series, or is the Honda knock sensor still the way to go?
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Re: Better than OEM knock control?
The only ones I remember using were the J&S Knock control sensors. They were fantastic as knock control on a couple TA Supras I used to mess around with.
take a peek. http://www.jandssafeguard.com/safeguard.html |
Re: Better than OEM knock control?
Or if you have the cash...
http://www.kistler.com/ID_en-sg/13_P...t-in-case.html Peak cylinder pressure meter, It's how the F1 engineers do it. :) |
Re: Better than OEM knock control?
Originally Posted by VTC_CiViC
(Post 46750380)
Just wondering if anybody knows of a better than factory solution for knock monitoring for your typical B-series, or is the Honda knock sensor still the way to go?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Knock-gauge-..._Parts&vxp=mtr This is from lithuania or something i wouldnt advise using it...but the concept seems like a good idea Dont know how well it works but pretty neat if it does work, you can also have a analog output added to it to maybe make some sort of detonation cut for use with a standalone management system. Or use the output to take timing out when detonation is detected, I mean we have boost cut and even lean protection, detonation cut seems like a good idea. It seems with the analog output you would be able to acheive this. Dont quote me on this tho its only a idea. seems pretty acheivable tho |
Re: Better than OEM knock control?
Originally Posted by kbouchard1092
(Post 46751192)
Thats a great question....i no way condon ebay but saw this on here.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Knock-gauge-..._Parts&vxp=mtr This is from lithuania or something i wouldnt advise using it...but the concept seems like a good idea Dont know how well it works but pretty neat if it does work, you can also have a analog output added to it to maybe make some sort of detonation cut for use with a standalone management system. this thing reminds me of the autometer "air/fuel" XMAS tree gauges. |
Re: Better than OEM knock control?
Yea it looks crazy...but i think its a great idea. Plus tailoring in the analog output to youre management you could get creative IE. Detonation cut, pull timing when detonation is detected. Seems like pretty good logic and making a set-up that much safer.
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Re: Better than OEM knock control?
What is wrong with Lithuania?
The stock sensor isn't very accurate... There are plenty of options: MSD, J&S, KS Racing, Phormula, Kistler, ect... Plenty of options - you can even make your own. If you don't want to deal with all the electronics there is always the old "DET-can" method. |
Re: Better than OEM knock control?
nothing is wrong with the country, id just be a little cautious buying parts manufactured there. Thats just my personal opinion i have no personal experience with them...no different then how i would feel buying parts manufactured in china well when it comes to parts for my car.
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Re: Better than OEM knock control?
The problem with the J&S is its 10 years old and it’s a piggy back. I prefer control over the complete ignition system including knock retard through my EMS system. There’s no reason a modern EMS system can't leverage 25+ year old technology.
Currently all of the OEM ECU based solutions are ineffective using OEM knock control. AEM EMS can make use of the sensor but a new "base line" is required to eliminate normal operating noise. I thought this method was effective but many say the OEM knock sensor is inaccurate once the engine is upgraded (larger bore and forged internals). MeqaSquirt can use an add-on called KnockSense. Its a Bosch Knock sensor (same sensor used by J&S) that has a broader frequency range and can be tuned for the specific bore and MS can actually use this data to effectively retard ignition. Knock is the most important condition to control yet it’s the least monitored. KnockSense sells a universal controller that can light a warning light and give you a 5v output that you can log with any EMS. You make a low/no boost run with very conservative ignition timing and dial in the sensitivity with this baseline. Now knock volts above this baseline is considered real knock. It’s not perfect and it cant retard ignition but at least its a warning and you can tune with it. |
Re: Better than OEM knock control?
Originally Posted by Muckman
(Post 46751454)
Knock is the most important condition to control yet it’s the least monitored. .
Im in for more information on this...im sure someone is doing it. Seems like a great idea. On my next tune i planned on having the Lean protection set-up once i have the wideband wired into the S300. This seems like it would be additional protection if they had a detonation cut. Its a little out of my leauge tho not sure if the S300 has that option to adjust timing or Cut fuel/igniton based on certain detonation levels. But seems plausible |
Re: Better than OEM knock control?
Originally Posted by kbouchard1092
(Post 46751799)
Agreed....Good information as well. I think detonation cut would be HUGE. Or like at least use it too pull timing . Its definalty something i would be interested in doing.
Im in for more information on this...im sure someone is doing it. Seems like a great idea. On my next tune i planned on having the Lean protection set-up once i have the wideband wired into the S300. This seems like it would be additional protection if they had a detonation cut. Its a little out of my leauge tho not sure if the S300 has that option to adjust timing or Cut fuel/igniton based on certain detonation levels. But seems plausible |
Re: Better than OEM knock control?
Originally Posted by Muckman
(Post 46751454)
The problem with the J&S is its 10 years old and it’s a piggy back. I prefer control over the complete ignition system including knock retard through my EMS system. There’s no reason a modern EMS system can't leverage 25+ year old technology.
Currently all of the OEM ECU based solutions are ineffective using OEM knock control. AEM EMS can make use of the sensor but a new "base line" is required to eliminate normal operating noise. I thought this method was effective but many say the OEM knock sensor is inaccurate once the engine is upgraded (larger bore and forged internals). MeqaSquirt can use an add-on called KnockSense. Its a Bosch Knock sensor (same sensor used by J&S) that has a broader frequency range and can be tuned for the specific bore and MS can actually use this data to effectively retard ignition. Knock is the most important condition to control yet it’s the least monitored. KnockSense sells a universal controller that can light a warning light and give you a 5v output that you can log with any EMS. You make a low/no boost run with very conservative ignition timing and dial in the sensitivity with this baseline. Now knock volts above this baseline is considered real knock. It’s not perfect and it cant retard ignition but at least its a warning and you can tune with it. |
Re: Better than OEM knock control?
interesting...i guess thats why i never hear people doing this. Guess ill just stick to boost cut and lean protection for additional safety measures
i would have thought a quailty knock sensor (non-oem) with a 0-5 v analog output could be used to at least have some sort of cut that at a certian threshold (voltage) could create some type of cut (like boost cut does when you hit youre boost limit) This doesnt seem like it would be too hard incoporating this to a EMS. Its in essence the same thing they do for lean protection with the s300 but with a O2 output vs in this case a knock sensor only giving my logic here, i could very well be wrong. It happens. Thats how u learn |
Re: Better than OEM knock control?
Originally Posted by kbouchard1092
(Post 46751933)
interesting...i guess thats why i never hear people doing this. Guess ill just stick to boost cut and lean protection for additional safety measures
i would have thought a quailty knock sensor (non-oem) with a 0-5 v analog output could be used to at least have some sort of cut that at a certian threshold (voltage) could create some type of cut (like boost cut does when you hit youre boost limit) This doesnt seem like it would be too hard incoporating this to a EMS. Its in essence the same thing they do for lean protection with the s300 but with a O2 output vs in this case a knock sensor only giving my logic here, i could very well be wrong. It happens. Thats how u learn |
Re: Better than OEM knock control?
Bringing this back from the dead.
Did any one setup a better knock sensor on the honda with AEM. I was reading and miata guys go with a saturn knock sensor , same as used by js for their bore option 21021879 . i was looking at the knocksense unit, but having an aem, i would think this would provide a much better base. key is finding out the settings for each knock sensor. |
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