MotorMouth

The machine shop wants $200 to balance the rotating assembly for my b16. My question is, should I do it, I would like to rev about 1k over redline, my goal is to use a t3/t67 or maybe gt35r, Those compressor maps show the turbos to be very efficient(unless I'm reading wrong...I am a noob) at that engine speed. THis is a stock sleeved engine. I am currently running a t3/t4 .63hot side. The car responds really well when I take it to those levels(I know its a bad idea). So will balancing the assembly make those rpms a little safer. Is it worth $200 in terms of safer operating at those rpms.

urbansi

Yes balancing the engine will be one of the most important things to do when building a motor.
If you dont balance the motor you are basically throwing all the money away that you spent in the first place.

Boostage

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by urbansi &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yes balancing the engine will be one of the most important things to do when building a motor.
If you dont balance the motor you are basically throwing all the money away that you spent in the first place.</TD></TR></TABLE>

um, no.

urbansi

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Boostage &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

um, no.</TD></TR></TABLE>


can i have more of answer than that, especially when reving to 10k

Zakar

what parts did you rebuild with??? one of the big things with reving high, upgrade your valvetrain.. hondas seem to drop valves more often then throw rods when it comes to revs

Boostage

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by urbansi &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


can i have more of answer than that, especially when reving to 10k</TD></TR></TABLE>

Factory crank is already balanced. rods (at least my Pauters) are already balanced from Pauter. you dont need to any furthur balancing. I have never seen any honda motor let go because it wasnt balanced. I would be more worried about proper dampening for the new rotating assembly than anything else.

urbansi

Oh your right the things that v-8 builders do on every motor and all those things that machine shops do is just a big lie, and are just there for the money.

I know that when i put my motor together i will make sure to get everything balanced, its peice of mind. Oh and i do know someone that didnt get everything balanced in his motor, piston to wall scrapes and the motor almost vibrated it self apart. I have expierence with this so that is why i would balance it.

Boostage

Nobody says v8 shops are lieing, balancing IS necessary for small block chevies and small block fords. but Hondas are already balanced. ask boostfed if he balanced his motor when he made 675whp on his b16 or 711whp on his gsr. honda cranks are balanced very well and there isnt much if anything u can do to improve on it.

urbansi

Ok well i will have everything balanced regaurdless.

Your opinion on this matter is not going to change my mind or <U>hopefully</U> anyone elses.

I am sure Evans loves putting together motors that arent blue printed and balanced. **** the guy wont even use mic'ed cranks i heard.

BE SMART, BALANCE YOUR ROTATING ASSEMBLY

EnzoSpeed

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Boostage &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Nobody says v8 shops are lieing, balancing IS necessary for small block chevies and small block fords. but Hondas are already balanced. ask boostfed if he balanced his motor when he made 675whp on his b16 or 711whp on his gsr. honda cranks are balanced very well and there isnt much if anything u can do to improve on it.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Then I'd better tell Earl/Benson that I want my money back. Apparently they didn't actually balance my crank, seeing as it was already factory balanced. I must have imagined the newly drilled counterweights when it came back from Benson.

urbansi

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EnzoSpeed &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Then I'd better tell Earl/Benson that I want my money back. Apparently they didn't actually balance my crank, seeing as it was already factory balanced. I must have imagined the newly drilled counterweights when it came back from Benson.</TD></TR></TABLE>

No that was actually an illusion, there that good over there. What you actually saw was Boostage on the back of a pig flying over a midget farm JK.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Boostage &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Nobody says v8 shops are lieing, balancing IS necessary for small block chevies and small block fords. but Hondas are already balanced. ask boostfed if he balanced his motor when he made 675whp on his b16 or 711whp on his gsr. honda cranks are balanced very well and there isnt much if anything u can do to improve on it.</TD></TR></TABLE>

And just bewcause it hasent broken yet doesnt mean that it didnt need to be balanced. Also have the bearings been looked at since that power level has been made, as well as the oil pump, piston walls etc.

I will respect all opinions, just not the ones i dont agree on


Modified by urbansi at 8:13 PM 2/18/2006

EnzoSpeed

A balanced rotating assembly is a key factor in reducing oil pump failure. From my point of view, $200 is cheap insurance against destroying your entire motor.

Boostage

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EnzoSpeed &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Then I'd better tell Earl/Benson that I want my money back. Apparently they didn't actually balance my crank, seeing as it was already factory balanced. I must have imagined the newly drilled counterweights when it came back from Benson.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah sure why not? but seriously. Earl is a great engine builder, he only uses Benson open deck sleeves, pauter rods and cp piston. and he also doesnt do line bores. so seeing that he is a good engine builder, if someone line bores a Darton semi closed deck block with Wiseco, pistons and crower rods. it probably wont last long because afterall there is only one way to do a motor...

Boostage

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EnzoSpeed &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">A balanced rotating assembly is a key factor in reducing oil pump failure. From my point of view, $200 is cheap insurance against destroying your entire motor.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I guess my motor will fail tomorrow.. thanks for the heads up

urbansi

So how does this relate to balancing???

stay on topic with this. I want to get this straight. I am not trying to be a dick, and i have seen you give great information to most people but i completly disagree as i am sure a real engine builder would also. Balancing should never be over looked.

And to the origional creator of this thread, BALANCE THAT DAMN MOTOR

vaporboy12

its well worth it to get it balanced. you goin to have to rev it out for those size turbos if you want to make some power

Boostage

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by vaporboy12 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">its well worth it to get it balanced. you goin to have to rev it out for those size turbos if you want to make some power</TD></TR></TABLE>
He said he wants to rev 1k rpm over stock

EnzoSpeed

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Boostage &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
He said he wants to rev 1k rpm over stock</TD></TR></TABLE>

He also said:

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MotorMouth &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> my goal is to use a t3/t67 or maybe gt35r </TD></TR></TABLE>


So obviously he's going to be revving higher than that. And even if he wasn't, why not balance the assembly to get maximum engine life? I don't understand why anyone would NOT recommend getting an assembly balanced. It's only $200? Get it done.

MotorMouth

Thank you guys for dukin it out, I didn't want to raise this much of a fuss, but honestly I am leaning toward the balancing just because I am aiming for a high horse power daily driver, even though that is a contradiction in terms. I appreciate both aspects of the responses. Hving two or three knowledgeable answers is really good and answers like:

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EnzoSpeed &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Then I'd better tell Earl/Benson that I want my money back. Apparently they didn't actually balance my crank, seeing as it was already factory balanced. I must have imagined the newly drilled counterweights when it came back from Benson.</TD></TR></TABLE>

At least give me something to look for after I get my balanced assembly back, before this I wouldn't have even known to look for such things. This way I can ask an intelligent question of the machine shop like " I don't see any change to the crank, does that mean the balance was right on?" And I can weigh it out to make sure they aren;t just ripping me off.

Thanks Again, don't want to contribute to any **** talking here, you are all really knowledgable and I appreciate the responses.

Rob.

EnzoSpeed

Look for fresh, shiny holes drilled into the crankshaft counterweights - there will already be some old, dull ones from the original factory balancing. I assume they are also balancing the clutch/flywheel assembly, but I don't know what to look for there. Probably the same thing - fresh drill holes.

ludesleep

Balancing makes a huge difference for those of you who don't know. An unbalanced motor will cause vibration and stress in itself and supporting structures. Balancing is thereby necessary to increase quality of product, minimize vibration, minimize audible and signal noises, minimize structural stresses, minimize operator annoyance and fatigue, increase bearing life, and to minimize power loss. Unbalance in only one engine component may cause the entire assembly, and in some cases the chassis, to vibrate. This in turn creates stress within the engine assembly. A substantial reduction in crankshaft, connecting rod, bearings, and timing assembly reliability is unnecessarily imposed on the engine. In some rare cases an unbalanced engine will cause the chassis to vibrate to a point where the tire adhesion is affected. When components move up and down they are considered reciprocating. Each piston and rod assembly has mass and must be balanced. Those parts include... the pistons, piston rings, piston pins, connecting rods, connecting rod bearings, weight of oil on the components during operation. Manufacturers balance allowances are quite generous, so engines should always be checked when dissembled. It is not unusual to find piston and rod weights varying by 5 to 10 grams.

coneheadsracing

If you are spending money to have it all balanced, would you not also want to make sure as little oil as possible is getting up on the crank also then? I know b-series have some pretty good baffling, but D not so much. And actually my after market pan has none, just trap doors. How much does the oil up on the crank affect the balance just performed?

ludesleep

Yes that's the whole purpose of a dry sump system. Couple months ago I posted some pics of a Indy car crankshaft. They are actually pumping oil into the side of the crank from the inside out just to keep from having to rely on the crank to pick up the oil. But when you balance or "blueprint" you figure the weight into the balance job. The industry standard is 5.