rustydusty1717

Went to my local speedshop to look at something new to tune my boosted honda with. my original plan was just use hondata but they're trying to get me to use this VI-Pec. i watched a video on how easy it is to tune but the cost is crazy. $1600?

now hondata is only what $850 for the bundle with the ECU and S300 already installed which is exactly what i'm looking for. now they said i could go with hondata if i want but it would take atleast 4 hours to tune the car and it would cost just as much as VI-Pec because it takes so long to tune. now my question is, should i still go with hondata? or go with VI-Pec? does it actually take 4 hours to tune hondata? money does not grow on my back tree like most people on this site so i need an honest answer on which route to go. VI-Pec, Hondata s300 or another form of tuning. this isn't a huge HP build i just want 275-300 WHP. any comments would be greatly appreciated. need all the help i can get

HRTuning

Hondata is a great system with a lot of good options. Unless you plan on being a race only vehicle with lots of add-ons you'll probably never exceed the capabilities.

rustydusty1717

ya but if i pay 800 for the hondata then have to spend 4+ hours on dyno it's gonna end up being same price as Vi-Pec. i watched them tune a talon with Vi-pec and it took about 15-20 mins. how long does it usually take to tune hondata? like i said this isn't a huge build. all i've got done is head gasket, head studs, fuel pump, 440 injectors and the greddy turbo kit.

baller status

If you're going to spend $1600ish get the AEM.

Anything that can be "tuned" in 15-20 mins is nonsense.

rustydusty1717

non sense?

here ya go:

http://www.lightspeedinnovatio...e.wmv

rustydusty1717

anyone else? need to make a decision fairly quickly. how long does it usually take to tune a b16 with hondata? my tuner is pretty damn good also.

baller status

If you believe everything you see in a video on the internet, then I got an electric supercharger and the amazing "tornado" fuel saver to sell to you.

Yes, and now that I've watched that video, I'm even more confident in my assessment. "Auto tune" aka automapping is nothing new. In fact, it's been a feature in the AEM EMS software for several years now. The problem is that it doesn't work all that great. It makes a mess of your fuel map. Lots of very high peaks next to dips. You spend more time smoothing over the graph and retuning it by hand then it took for the automapping process. I'll explain why later.

Automapping does not tune the ignition. It doesn't tune start up. It doesn't tune idle. It doesn't tune acceleration enrichment. It doesn't tune deceleration fuel cut off. It doesn't tune boost compensation. These things take hours to be tuned properly. The ONLY thing it tunes is fuel. A good tuner starting with a good base map can tune a car that they have a lot of experience with, to a reasonable degree of power, engine safety, and driveability, in about an hour to two hours. That holds true for any system, even if you are tuning a carb with fixed ignition timing. The more time they spend the better the end result. Crappy systems will require more time and result in a poorer tune. Great systems tune slightly quicker but more importantly they result in a better tune with better driveability.

Basically what it does is apply a calculation from your current air fuel ratio and your target air fuel ratio, then change your fuel pulse width until they match within a certain tolerance. I find auto tune annoying. I can just as easily watch the parameter that indicates this difference and hit the + or - key myself. I have tried repeatedly to get it to work but I find myself constantly intervening and then later I have to go through and smooth the whole map. This is one of many areas where computers can't easily replace people. Human intervention is essential.

Before I get into that, here's a quick scenario for you. You've set up your fuel target table (how long did that take you anyway? More than 15-20 minutes...) and off goes the program auto tuning your fuel. It starts to go up in load and suddenly you start hearing sounds like a squirrel scratching his way out of a coffee can. Is that auto tune program going to know what to do? I'm afraid not. It's going to blindly continue doing exactly what it was programmed to do. Calculate the difference between the actual fuel mixture and the target fuel mixture. If there is no human intervention you will actually blow your engine.

Calculating your target air/fuel ratios is a trial and error process. It's something I've been working on for months. My initial setup was good with some hiccups. Now it's far more detailed than anything any OEM manufacturer has ever put together. My driveability is excellent. I pass smog and I get upwards of 35 mpg. This is not something you can achieve by setting up a generic fuel target table, letting the ECU auto-program, and then sending the car on it's way.

Here's the problem with auto tune. First you have to understand resolution when talking about a fuel map. A fuel map is a table of cells. One axis is RPM, and the other is almost always Load. The AEM has good resolution giving you 17 load rows and 21 RPM columns. That's quite a bit more than the stock ECU and all the programs that run on the stock ECU. So how much fuel is being sprayed with the load and RPM are partway between two or four cells? Well the ECU averages the nearest points. When you're automapping, the ECU highlights the nearest cell (or group of cells in the case of VIPEC) and starts applying changes. But you're not in that cell, you're at a point between that cell and another that isn't being changed. So that cell that indicates 50kPa is getting tuned when in reality you're at 60kPa. It gets tuned too rich. Now when the neighboring cell gets tuned, the ECU pulls the fuel down too far to get to the point where it wants to be. A peak and a dip. Now try driving the car. When you drive, you don't neatly go up and down cells in each column or row. Generally you jump way up the load and then slope down as RPM increase unless you're racing. When your engine works through that lumpy fuel graph you get surges and stumbles. It's not very pleasant.

Then you pay a tuner to go over that jacked up fuel map and smooth it out while tuning it properly.

If the marketing for VIPEC is based entirely around automapping, it isn't worth the money it will cost you to UNinstall it.

Let me ask you this. The dyno in that video is a load-bearing type like the Mustang Dynos. Do you have access to such a dyno? Most likely all you will be able to find are Dynojets which are good for wide-open-throttle tuning ONLY. So I hope you live in a major metropolitan area where Honda racing is popular.

rustydusty1717

that mustang dyno is about 5 minutes from my apartment. thank you for actually explaining that for me. been looking for someone to do that for a while now. after reading what you wrote i think i'm going to continue with hondata and get it tuned on it. or is there an even better tuning system out there for cheaper? i'm looking at a bundle that includes the chipped ECU with everything already installed and just needing to be plugged in and tuned.

98vtec

neptune or ectune

Toma

Nothing can be 'tuned' in 20 minutes.

You can get something good enough to run in 20 minutes...

But tuning means making changes for best power before reaching the knock limit at all the different load points. You cant do that in 20 minutes with any system.

rustydusty1717

they tuned that car ith Vi-Pec in about 20-30 minutes. i took a ride in the car and it runs great but like baller status said it's not tuned as good as it could be. it also cost's $1600. i can get hondata with it all installed for like $950 but i don't want to have to spend another $800 of dyno time to get it tuned. i don't want the car to blow up but this isn't a high HP build. just want 300 WHP out of it.

HRTuning

950? You can find it cheaper than that pre-installed including ECU. Dyno time will not cost $800, if it does, go somewhere else.

I don't believe for a second that a standalone with no decent basemap to start a Honda on can be properly tuned easily and in less time than a Honda based system with everything preset and ready to start.

Between the price of dyno time and them telling you it's the easier to tune option, something doesn't sound right.

rustydusty1717

where's a place i can find it cheaper? i want the ecu to come with s300 already installed so i just need to get the harness and plug it in and get it tuned. don't wanna try installing it and wreck my ecu. can anyone tell me an average time it would take to tune a b16 with hondata on a fairly good tune. like 2 hours? 3 hours? just so i can figure out how much it's gonna cost when i go to tune it.

HRTuning

You'll have to look for another tuner who can do it cheaper.

Time will depend on the setup.

rustydusty1717

setup is:

Greddy td05h 18g turbo
440 cc injectors
Greddy front mount
head gasket
head studs
fuel pump upgrade
manual boost controller
greddy type s BOV

about it. only motor stuff that's been done is the head gasket and head studs. i know the turbo i got maxes at about 300 whp but that should be good enough for me for now.

Tomdata

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 98vtec &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">neptune or ectune </TD></TR></TABLE>
X2

Hondata

AutoTune is junk almost all of the time. I have never ever ever seen it work properly on any system. Including motorolla and Motec. You still have to go back and fix alot of stuff.

rustydusty1717

which is overall a better bang for the buck, neptune or ectune?

HRTuning

NepTune is an all in one system that needs only one cable. You'll spend about $5 more for eCtune, but it has a lot of features and a nice interface.

You can get the NepTune RTP software for free to check it out at http://www.hrtuning.com

zccr-xsi

ectune FTW!!

rustydusty1717

does neptune have a bundle like hondata? ECU and the tuning chip already installed so it just need to be plugged in with the harness and tuned?

98vtec

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tomdata &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
X2

Hondata

AutoTune is junk almost all of the time. I have never ever ever seen it work properly on any system. Including motorolla and Motec. You still have to go back and fix alot of stuff. </TD></TR></TABLE>. I have found the ectune to be decent enough to at least get a really fast and efficient idea of what the map is going to look like. It is of course going to need to be tuned again by hand but it can be a useful tool when starting from scratch and want to get up and running faster than having to keep looking through the log.

HRTuning

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rustydusty1717 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">does neptune have a bundle like hondata? ECU and the tuning chip already installed so it just need to be plugged in with the harness and tuned?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes, many places have them installed in an ECU and ready to go.

http://www.xenocron.com
http://www.j-k-tuning.com
http://www.phearable.net

rustydusty1717

i haven't heard much about ectune and neptune so i'm pretty sure i'm gonna go with hondata. is it an overall pretty good way to tune a honda?

HRTuning

It is. I'm surprised you haven't heard of NepTune though.

Toma

K... obviously what you consider tuned and what I consider tuned is vastly different.

FACT of the matter is, after the 30 minute "cloes enough tune", you will spend 2 hours to get the FINE tune. To prove my point.... go and ask Cam at Lightspeed this questions specifically, and you will see I am right.

Ask him... "after the 30 minute 'tune'... if I take my car to Toma for a 2 hour tune, will he make significantly more HP and Torque? Improve cold start and drivability etc"?

So, after your 30 minutes and $1600, you will still have to pay for $300+ in dyno time to get it 'right'. If you don't, you might as well save yourself the money, bring it to me or someone else that has some experience, and tune it with Chrome. 300 hp is nothing..... and you would be hard pressed to beat the Crom on what you have.