Beckerton

I have been doing a lot of thinking about tuning. It has been explained to me that tuning ignition on the street can be a bad thing to do and is better left to a dyno. I don't have access to a dyno in my area (Northern Ontario, closest dyno I can find is approximately 7 hours away).

I understand that there are a couple very good reasons to have a car dyno tuned.
1) You are tuning in a controlled environment that minimizes variables (Wind speed, direction, terrain, weather conditions etc...
2) You can measure the results of your tuning actions (Are changes making positive gains or are they detrimental)
3) Results are more easily replicated on a dyno.

Now, the conclusion that I have come to is that when tuning, the most crucial component is being able to measure the results of your tuning so that you are able to make changes to achieve more power safely.

Tuning the fuel maps should prove fairly easy, whether you tune them on the street or the dyno. I'm going to say they are more easily tuned on a dyno, but it is not impossible to be done in the street. I don't feel that a dyno is necessary for this step.

Tuning ignition is definitely easier on a dyno in the respect that you do not have road noise (Wind noise, tires on pavement, ability to hold steady rpm longer etc etc) Also, as explained to me, you want to tune to find MBT or maximum brake torque. Now in order to tune for maximum brake torque you need to know when you are no longer making power while tuning. A dyno is the best tool to determine this because it graphs that information out in a neat and organized manner.

This is where my recent thoughts come into play. Is a dyno really necessary in determining MBT? I have seen products advertised that claim they are capable of calculating 0-60,1/8 mile, and 1/4 mile times. These same devices are said to calculate HP and TQ ratings within 1%. So would it not be possible to tune for MBT using one of these? I understand that these devices probably won't give me numbers that will match with actual dyno readouts. That is fine with me, because at this point I don't care what I'm making for numbers, I care about making gains. The accuracy of these items holds no bearing on their usefulness to tune, however, they must be fairly consistent to be used as a tool to achieve MBT.
It doesn't matter how accurate the device is in measuring ACTUAL HP and TQ, but it would need to be consistent run after run.

As long as the device is capable of showing gains or losses in correlation to tuning changes then I think that they could be used to achieve a better street tune than without, but not as good of a tune as a dyno. Am I off my rocker for thinking that by using one of these, in conjunction with a wideband and det can, an individual could tune their own vehicle to a point where it falls between street and dyno tune?

Any input, reasons why it would or wouldn't and any corrections are welcomed.

0mtber

iTrader: (2)

Have you thought about the risk you are going to be taking every time you run the vehicle down a road in 3rd gear all the way up to the revlimit?
It is possible to measure the difference in the passes you log i.e. mph vs time etc. I would suggest staying away from this method of estimating MBT.

My advice, get a basemap from an experienced tuner, sync your ignition timing to the distributor & dial in the fuel tables. Learn to read plugs, play with the ignition timing slightly & call it a day until you can get to a dyno.

Beckerton

I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say. On one hand you're telling me that using a tool that calculates TQ and HP is a bad idea to establish where my power falls off, and on the other you're telling me to get a basemap in a place that has no tuners or dyno, and street tune my car with no indication of possible gains or losses. How am I supposed to know what my ignition changes yield without a means of measuring the changes. I can't understand why you would suggest not using a telemetry device over using one and tuning the ignition blind. Maybe you can elaborate on why that is?
I have thought about the risk, that's where tuning comes into play. Whether it's tuning on the road or tuning on a dyno, the risk you speak of is still present. I am looking for solid, sensible and concrete reasons why using one of these devices is a worse idea than tuning without one. Looking forward to your input guys.

Chris

q16racer

if those tools really worked as well as they are advertised, then why would people spend 60-130k dollars on a dyno?

tuning the ignition timing on the street does not have to be done blindly. If you understand what a spark plug should look like under different engine conditions then you cant really go wrong. If you have an understanding of the engine you are tuning, you can get pretty close to guessing where MBT is going to be and curve your ignition timing slope around that.

he is telling you to look online at reputable companies like his, xenocron...etc that have been tuning a long time and have a large database of tuning files to base your personal basemap off. Will it be perfect out of the box? most likely not, but it will be a good starting point.

the risk he is talking about is bodily injury, tickets, jail....etc.
________
Vaporizer Wholesaler

0mtber

iTrader: (2)

Did you not read the part that says "learn how to read plugs", "get a basemap to start with"?

With a base tune from some one with tons of dyno tuning experience & some common knowledge on plug reading you can get very close to a safe & powerful tune without a dyno.

Beckerton

I guess I wasn't looking at it from that perspective, I was thinking he was referring to tuning...

Yes, I read what you wrote. I suppose that is one of my few options. Looks like it's time to educate myself on reading plugs. Thanks for your input.

I CRX I

i look at it this way, like most tasks in life, theres an easy way to do it and theres the hard way (dynos haven't always been readily available for one to purchase yet cars have been tuned accurately in the passed). obviously the cheaper of the 2 would be the one that requires more work. now if you have no means of tuning the car on a dyno then your only option would be to get as close as possible with other sensors and means of information as mentioned above but keep in mind, you'll need to leave a significantly larger margin for error in one method as suppose to the other or risk engine failure. what dynos provide is a means of accuracy to achieve results with out the "what if" involved with tuning without one. are they completely necessary? not at all. are the completely accurate? not really, are they useful when trying to determine MBT? close enough!

integrawow

Go to the dragstrip on a test n tune day. Should be all that is necessary. If you can't pull it off this way, then fire and rehire the nut punching the laptop buttons.

Beckerton

No local dragstrip, no tuners, nobody with quick cars here either...some older guys with old muscle, zero tuning scene, zero race scene...I don't have access to a dyno, or the car would be dyno tuned...I wanted feedback about the potential of using something other than a dyno to get a better tune than "seat of my pants" tuning. Something that replicates results for me to look at, rather than just feel.

MrDomino

Quite possibly the worst post on Honda-Tech ever.

killer_siller

Jeff Hartman, in his book "How to Tune and Modify Engine Management Systems," discusses the applicability of telemetry devices. They're more useful than most give credit for. You don't even need them to spit out anything that says "Torque" or "Horsepower". All you need to measure is acceleration. If you can plot acceleration over RPM, then you have comparable information. I had considered an Innovative LMA-3 for this purpose. I like Innovative's software, but wasn't looking forward to the installation requirements. I bought a GTECH Pro instead. Not a wise decision. Mounting sucks, it slips constantly, and makes life difficult.

If I was to do it again I would build an accelerometer on a small wafer, shrink-wrap it, and use it's 5 volt output as an input on one of my Innovative boxes. It'd be the size of a stamp, and very easy to mount on an articulated arm. I'd then graph voltage across RPM, and viola! comparable acceleration curves. No, it doesn't say "horespower" or "torque", but I came to the exact same conclusion you did: it doesn't have to.

There was a link floating around the internets here about two years ago that was "build your own accelerometer" that I found interesting, but I can't seem to find it very easily now. If I do, I'll post it.

killer_siller

Autospeed has an article about accelerometers and comparative tuning. They use a mechanical one, but it's still a good read:

http://autospeed.com/cms/A_2133/article.html
http://autospeed.com/cms/title_Accel...4/article.html

cloviskilla

iTrader: (2)

your stupid

sleepencivic

look into jeff evans (evans tunning) they have a e-tune program they keep sending you maps and you send your logs until the tune is spot on!!!

MrDomino

Don't attack people. He said something that was a bad idea/misinformed. That doesn't mean he's stupid. I have said many things on Honda-Tech that were incorrect or bad ideas. Also you need to work on your grammar.