HRTuning

I'd definitely look at IATs. Try a hot start shortly after shutoff, so it's not heat soaked, and try one with a little delay so it's absorbed some heat to affect those IATs at start.

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

last attempt lol

it is running much better after few adjustments.

there are 2 datalogs in the file and the latest calibration file that is somewhat close but i dont know how else to adjust it because if i increase fuel in hot start it idles at 13.0 during normal idle.

hs- hot start
cs cold start

its a .rar extension renamed to zip.

HRTuning

I'm sorry you're unable to get it where you want on your own. I unfortunately can't put together where you're lost in this and I would suggest seeking professional help.

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

the problem is post start
everything else now is on point
but the 30 seconds to a minute is lean and i dont know how to work it out

HRT did you do anything to the wideband d14 input code?
because allovasudden it started logging perfectly in sync with the gauge with exactly same settings that i had before when it was buggin out.

the tuner is an hour away and it would mea nleaving the car there for a day i cant really do that.

Johnny_9

is your closed loop narrowband or wideband?

HRTuning

I'm not sure what else I can say that I haven't already. It's a balance between the enrichment settings and post start. You have everything you need to properly set it up.

That would be related to your grounds or hardware.

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

jonny what are you talking about.
i dont have closed loop its open loop.
and its not hondata its neptune. they are not same menus.(similar but not same)

HRT so is the post start only for cold start like someone mentioned here or is it for hot restart also im confused now.



heres the problem im having.

at the moment cold start is good but hot restart is too lean
if i add post start trim now.
cold start will be too rich and hot start on point.
so i would have to decrease fuel trim on cold temps and cold rpm to keep post start leaner.
which would lean out the afr after post start runs out.

i donno how to explain it better.

i cant move anything else otherwise it will affect the normal engine idle.

in other words.
ONLY the initial 30-60 seconds after start is what i need to fix.
everything else is good.

but the only setting for that is post start trim which i tried already with 10 increments and none got me where i need to be.

if i change any other settings it will affect the normal idle

HRTuning

Here's what I mentioned to do. You didn't respond to it with results for these tests.



What you're effectively saying here in your conclusion is that while the ECU is adding post start fuel it runs leaner and when it stops adding fuel it runs normal. Think about that for a second. There's no setting in the post start trim that will pull fuel. You're only adjusting how much is added which also effects how long it's active for. When you realize that your conclusion is not really plausible if your corrections are perfect go back again. Watch the fuel value in logging. Watch the map trace and see where it is when it's lean. Correlate the ECT and IAT values with when it runs lean vs when it doesn't. If after all of that you still mean to tell me that when post start is adding fuel it actually runs leaner it's time to follow my suggestion and take it to a pro.

HRTuning

Incorrect. There's post start fuel added during startup even at full operating temp.

Vtec6000

On a GTR I tuned recently I had similar issue with lean hot start, adding some fuel in the post start table at operating temp and above sorted it, this was with a Haltech ecu. Ectune has a post start table which is ECT based

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

neptune is just one setting as far as i know. and hondata same i belive

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

heres a video i made today
car was at full operating temp

196 ect and 160 iat( it was pretty hot here today)

1 50 post start
2 40 post start
3 30 post start
4 20 post start
5 zero post start
nothing else changed.

http://s43.photobucket.com/user/rave...74702.mp4.html
having ect based post start would definitely make things easier in this case.

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

it doesnt seem to make any difference if i put it at 50 or zero
like the last video.
other times it runs ok with exception of cold start.

i already adjusted iat, ect, post start, cranking trim for each temp.

everyone keeps saying adjust iat ect but i already did many times.
i drive it every day and probably start the car at least 10 times in different conditions so count how many different combinations of settings i already tried.
its not that.
when it idles it idles right
ONLY AFTER START ITS HAVING PROBLEMS for 30 seconds to a minute

can it be faulty demon unit?
because everyone keeps pointing fingers at the other company
i spoke to moates he said cant be demon
i spoke to hrt he said it cant be neptune
i emailed innovative they said cant be the wideband

same tuner tuned the engine last time on crome with absolutely no problems
everything was on point. idle was good cold and hot start

with this setup he even said that the afr was not consistent he had hard time getting it where it needs to be.

anyone else can suggest maybe theres a mechanical problem that can possibly cause this?

weak coil or ignitor?
irridium IX spark plugs BKR7EIX-11 ?
defective iacv? same one that i used since it was built
ecu was chipped 2 years ago had no problems on crome i also replaced the capacitor
and resoldered everything to make sure no cold solders.
bad injector or FPR or maybe bad fuel pump?

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

car is already idling at 13.4 when warm and 12.7 when warming up
yet the post start is still at 11 afr when cold starting and at 16.8 afr when hot restart so i dont know how much more fuel i need to add...

anyone else have suggestions? maybe something i missed when setting idle or canit be a clogged injector?
valves?
although compression is and was always good

Johnny_9

Try increasing the crank raw pulse at the starting ECT (see my earlier post). What is your Battery Volts log say? Are your deadtimes correct? Do you have ATLC on?

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

atlc?
battery 14.4
i tried increasing and decreasing crank fuel for each temp didnt help

injector offset is correct
J9 have you ever used neptune?

Johnny_9

What is your cranking battery volts?

You may want to prepare a spreadsheet (for own your own benefit as well as others) detailed the cold/hot start temperatures and what your settings were)

As you changed your manifold (Px) the surface area now differs (The volume of the fuel trapped on the manifold wall during cold start is different - this is critical) for more info see


Its callled Fuel Tau

https://www.highpowermedia.com/RET-M...the-tau-factor


U just got to work through the tune in a more methodical fashion, understanding the basics of what is going on?

Johnny_9

Assuming your normal operating temp. map/injector deadtime is tuned right, you may want to try combination(s) of "less cranking" & "more post start" to get that fuel tau puddle in equilibrium.

The hunch is the amount of fuel trapped on the (now larger) PX manifold wall has evaporated (because the surface areas and runner shape is different), leading to the lean reading on your wideband, or

The fuel the engine is getting (from the fuel map) immediately after firing is causing the post start lean spot.

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

missed your replies

it is strange.

lately. the lean spot doesnt start right away

i have wideband wired up to ignition so i wait till its warmed up and shows the reading.
then i start the engine.the wideband comes on 2 seconds after and shows around 13 afr
within first 10-15 seconds it creeps up to 15.5-16.8 afr and then stays there for about 30-60 seconds and then goes back to normal rather quickly.
even if i start driving right away, the afr is still lean at a stop light.

that is today with only thing changed is less crank fuel and post start trim at 35 instead of 50

the problem is the car starts really really hard with so much post start fuel.

if i decrease the post start closer to zero the car starts quick and easy but runs even leaner.

i mean i did get the car to idle and run reasonably well before it got tuned.
the car starts and idles great with stock ecu(to my surprise)
and it starts and idles with my own calibration. but its not very good anywhere else.
and i used completely different injector size and other trims in my own.


i mean the readings i get from one day to another are so inconsistent that i cant really do much.

even with same tune the afr readings are not same every day( and i drive it every day)

what else can i check besides messing with maps?

cranking trim is reduced from -20 to -45 right now tried with 35,40 and 50 post start.
car still starts like sht
the only way it starts good is if i decrease post start to around zero.


anyone else cal look at the calibration file maybe you spot something that is not right.
i tried so many combinations of trims and settings im running out of ideas.
i called the tuner and tried doing what he said also but didnt work.

there are only 2-3 tuners locally that have good reputation that i know of( richtuned and speedfactory) and neither of them tune with neptune.
so theres not much choice i have.

Johnny_9

your fuel map/ignition your engine hits on firing (>500 rpm/987mBa up to Idle) needs to right - see attached shaded area.

Try adding (1%-3%) fuel, in this area in combination with the (less/more) Post Start Enrichment.

Sounds like this region is too lean, and you over compensate with Post Start/Cranking.

_______________________________________________

From above - Log your cranking times vs different cranking pulse (aim for the shortest cranking times ~ 0.3 to 0.4 secs (longer cranking time is too lean; cranking needing throttle is too rich). Do this at at cold start ECT

________________________________________________

Johnny_9

When you say "it starts hard", does it

a) take a long time to crank,
b) engines fires, then stumbles at low rpm?

_____________________________
Your closed loop/STRIM part throttle fuelling may be off, leading to inconsistent readings on different days; LTRIM affects fuelling

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

yep it sounds like its too much fuel

in cold start it hangs at 1000rpm then goes to normal cold start rpm
and it stumbles on startup even on hot start it stumbles

but if i take away post start it starts great (when post start is lower than 10)
but leans out right after.

it is in open loop.never had it in closed loop

he did forget to put the rdx injector battery offsets this time also.
i adjusted the offsets for lower voltage later on but for normal voltage the offsets are still stock 240cc honda injector. dontknow how much that would affect this.

ive been so busy and havent been able to have a day to go and get it retuned again
cant take the kid with me in a del sol.

is there a way to change the offset and adjust the fuel trim and fuel maps without taking it back to dyno

Johnny_9

Adjust fuel by +/- 2 to 3%.

Johnny_9

Adjust your ECT/Fuel Corrections by 2% steps (if current trim =30, try 30.6)

blackeg

any new progress on this issue? im having the same type of thing happen with neptune on my new lsvtec. ive been getting past it by lightly keeping my foot on the gas so the rpms are up around 1800 for about 45 seconds to a minute then idle afr is normal when i take my foot off the gas. cold start and warm idle are on point and like you, fall apart when i made additional changes to work on the hot start