raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

after i got my car tuned im still having issues with the idle.
everywhere else the tune is great.

for some reason both most reputable shops here do not want to tune with neptune and prefer hondata.
speedfactory and rich tuned... can anyone explain why?
they both avoided the question.

anyway

after installing the Px intake manifold and 70mm throttle body im having problems with idle. it just idles like crap.

when tuned we didnt have time to wait for full cool down so he got the idle set decent

but when its cold the idle is too rich. 10 afr
i adjusted the post start trim to get it at 12.5 on cold start but then it was too lean on hot restart. it would go up to 16.8 in post start and then even out at 13.5 or so.

i tried working with other fuel adjustments but no luck
i havent touched the actual fuel tables because i was hoping to work this out with just the fuel adustments available. but i cant seem to get it just right.

i wired the O2 sensor to ignition this time so it stays on during cranking and right after start
with normal settings it will start really hard like the engine stumbles right after cranking and then it will hang at 1000rpm and after post start is done(20 or so seconds) rpms go up to 1500 like normal cold start and afr would also go to 12.5-13.

if i decrease the cranking fuel and post start trim it starts very smooth like a stock engine.
and if i switch to oem program(disable the demon) it also starts up like stock engine and idles ok.

but then like i mentioned the hot restart is too lean

not sure if its the VE tables affecting this or what.
ve tables were left alone and kick in above 126 ect.

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

i called my tuner today he said to try adjusting the ect fuel trim for cold.
i tried that. doesnt make difference.

im certain its post start trim
because heres exactly what happends.

engine cold:
cank- it cranks sluggish like its flodded
starts up also sluggish and hangs at 1000 rpm for about 20-30 seconds
at the same time while its hanging the wideband shows 10 afr
once the afr starts climbing the rpm goes up to 1500 and normal cold idle kicks in with afr at 12.5

during hot restart it works great.

if i decrease the post start trim to half

it cranks smooth
it starts smooth and goes right up to the cold idle rpm at 1500 and proceeds with proper warmup.

but on hot restart it starts at 16.8 during post start trim again for about 20-30 seconds...

i dont know what to do with this

gaby-dr

you have to setup your ect fuel compensation, thats all. that is trial and error, just try untill it work

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

i already decreased raw cranking fuel for cold temps by half
and decreased ect fuel for cold temps by about 30% with no effect for startup and post start trim.
it seems like the post start trim is not affected by anything and just dumps certain amount of fuel regardless of other fuel settings.

the only one that has effect is post start trim once i decrease it without changing anything else.
car starts up great when cold. and not so great when hot. or other way around if i dont change anything.

Johnny_9

What is your cold start ECT? Post start is only in effect below 81 Celsius (this is not documented in S300 help - surprise!)

What is your narrowband STRIM at hot idle? Aim for +/- 5%

Whats is idle speed vs ECT setting?

Log your cranking times vs different cranking pulse (aim for the shortest cranking times ~ 0.3 to 0.4 secs (longer cranking time is too lean; cranking needing throttle is too rich). start at lean cranking and edge up. don't flood the engine - Use cranking trim first, then use the crank pulse @ temp to fine tune at the end of the whole process

Try this - use wideband cloop. ignore the post start period (first 30 secs) - data log your STRIM until full warm ECT (90 Celsius) - vehicle stationary. Adjust your ECTc (low load/high load - observe the slope in the stock map) fuel accordingly after analysis (graph the low/high load slope at each temp in excel). This is the foundation - if this is wrong, your post start adj will must harder. if u want to adjust on the fly jumper the service connector, says Hondata, but i never tried this, and wondered what it would to to the ignition timing (adjusting the ECTc (at load - i.e driving off immediately after cold start on a highly modded engine, is a whole different (OEM) ball game)

Note there is buffer is s300 ECTc to account for air pockets, so if you change it on the fly, it won't work. Change ECTc the night before, starting the next morning. U may want to change the ECTc temp break points to match your morning ECT

Only then adjust your post start (ignore the wideband during post start - <30 secs - observe how the engine runs - i.e. stumbling at low rpms, before recovering) - just see if the engine runs smoother with more or less post start - S300 post start doesn't have that much control/functions, but the important tune parameters is cranking pulse, and ECTc and fuel map STRIMs -/+ 5%

You need to do this every day in the morning. it is a time consuming. That's why your tuner is avoiding the issue. only advanced tuners can tune cold start, and even then if they can, they don't have time

Also your fuel map/ignition your engine hits on firing (>500 rpm up to Idle) needs to right. Datalog the cold start and observe the snake trail. tune your fuel (as much as u can to a strim +/- 5%) in those areas of the map (up a gradient in 2nd gear at 900-1,100 rpm at 53-65 kPa (load columns 3-4)

Your timing map at high rpm cold idle also needs to be tuned - see the stock map as a guide.

Only then try different combos of Cranking Pulse/Post Start enrichment.


Good luck!

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

Im using neptune. Sorry i probably forgot to mention

Johnny_9

S300 ~ Neptune.

HRTuning

Are you staying in open loop or using closed loop?

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

Im in open loop.
I was just saying that when i tried closed loop before i got it tuned it worked great.

Boyle.R

When I turn on closed loop in Neptune my trims go to like 10-15% even though in open loop my afr's are 14.3-14.5 at idle? I originally bought a brand new 02 sensor from Honda for it thinking the 02 sensor was faulty but obviously not the case.

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

neptune doesnt have same options as s300

HRTuning

Change the Open loop "VE" table to 0 in the idle area and tune the other settings out from there.

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

should try that thanks for the tip.

so i still cant find anywhere.

is the post start fuel dependent on any other fuel setting or vise versa?
or does it just add set amount of fuel regardless of ect and fuel maps?

Johnny_9

What was the ECT, and how long after starting (from Cold)?

Johnny_9

Now you are thinking/engaging.....dig the neptune help/forum - in S300 it is explained but not that lucidly. the test if you can get back to your crank pulse in the datalog graph, then u know what is affecting its - normally injector comp, ECTc at 95 kpa, cranking trim and fuel map value at 500rpm 104kpa

Johnny_9

That's a refinement...

HRT - can provide details on the Neptune port start - % enrichment, decay rates, tempratures etc

Johnny_9

HR T - what is your advice on cold start?

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

because when decreased it affects both cold and hot start

say i decrease it by 1/3 and cold start is at 12.5 while hot start is at 16.8
i decrease it from 50 to 45 and cold start is at 11.0 and hot restart is at 14.8 or so

at 50 the cold start is at 10.3 and hot restart is at 14.5 or so.

it is only in post start that im having issues. once post start runs out the cold and hot start are correct afr readings. so decreasing ect temp or cranking fuel doesnt have much effect( or at least i didnt nottice)

thats why i was wondering how they relate because to me it seems like even after decreasing every possible fuel setting, the cold start stays at 10 afr unless post start trim is decreased.

HRTuning

I'm not understanding why you can't decrease the ECT trim for cold start to bump that af up. Leave post start where it's fine during hot start.

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

i made a log file just now. to see whats goin on havent looked at it yet.

in the morning
i reset the demon
loaded up basemap and calibration fresh.
decreased crank trim from-20 to -25
decreased post start from 50 to 47
decreased raw cranking fuel by about 10-15% for cold starts
decreased cold ect from 26-21-16 to 24-20-16

car started at 10 afr and after post start was done it went up to 14.8 then 12.5 at 1200rpm and then to 13.8 at normal idle

hot start was ok tho.
but cold start is too lean after post start.
like i keep saying i tried decreasing every other fuel option
it doesnt affect post start.
its still at 10 afr unless i specifically decrease post start then its too lean onhot start.

i dropped the ve table from 11 to 9 % also.
will upload the log file later
is ect supposed to decrease post start cold or what thats what im trying to find out.

because mine doesnt decrease from any other fuel settings.

HRTuning

Set post start to -20. Adjust the ECT more than -1 percent. That's obviously not going to do much so it's really no surprise that nothing has changed for you.

bunnyzor

...........................................

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

i put the attachment from todays cold startup its rar file renamed to zip extension but should work in winzip anyway

i actually been messing with it every day trying different settings and i fix one spot then another one gets messed up.my tuner is an hour away and i cant bring my kid in a del sol thats why im trying to get this figured out on my own but so far no luck.

and i know its something with the calibration because i accidentally knocked the switch back to stock ecu and it started right up and idled smooth. but had an engine light obviously. and on my DIY calibration it idled well but i started from scratch so it was easier to follow what changed what.
with this one i just cant understand what he did and no luck trying to change it around.

i did try decreasing more than i listed in above post and it ran too lean everywhere else but post start stayed rich.

what happends if i just set post start to zero?

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

HRt can you give more info on post start?
how long does it last and if it affects other settings or is affected by other fuel settings?

Johnny_9

What does the help say? On S300 it is explained, but you have to read it 3-4 times, before it sinks in. It is fundamental to what u are doing. U need to what affects what. U will get there...that how I figured it out....

Only the injector size comp, didn't seem to any impact, but the help Said it would have.

Keep the questions going.....