Darton Mid Sleeves vs CSS 850++

 
Old 08-09-2017, 09:00 AM
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Default Darton Mid Sleeves vs CSS 850++

Hello, currently stuck between sleeving and using the Css on my turbo gsr. Looking for opinions towards making above 850hp on a turbo gsr using either of the two. I already have the sleeves but I can return, however the machine shop I wanted to go to recommend css, but I just want whatever has the best reviews and supports the best overall. Money is not a problem.
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Old 08-09-2017, 09:55 AM
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Default Re: Darton Mid Sleeves vs CSS 850++

Originally Posted by egsidev View Post
Hello, currently stuck between sleeving and using the Css on my turbo gsr. Looking for opinions towards making above 850hp on a turbo gsr using either of the two. I already have the sleeves but I can return, however the machine shop I wanted to go to recommend css, but I just want whatever has the best reviews and supports the best overall. Money is not a problem.

i went with css because at that time $$ was a problem. i regret going with css because its still STOCK SLEEVE and not that much less than sleeved block. If i waited a bit longer i would of had a ductile iron sleeved block. You said $$ is no issue. obviously sleeve the block. if you like the css support ring thing then get an LA sleeved closed deck block. ductile iron sleeve> css stock sleeve case closed.. if anybody does decide to go with a css block better hope it doesnt drop a valve, fail injector, bad tank of gas, wiring issue to the map or by by STOCK SLEEVE no support ring in the world can stop that from cracking.
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Old 08-09-2017, 10:13 AM
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Default Re: Darton Mid Sleeves vs CSS 850++

CSS is only rated for 500HP; so that should be an indication that it might not meet what you're looking for.
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Old 08-09-2017, 12:35 PM
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Default Re: Darton Mid Sleeves vs CSS 850++

^Agreed with the top two comments. Darton or LA sleeves would be superior, CSS won't be enough for the power level you're shooting for.
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Old 08-09-2017, 01:11 PM
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Default Re: Darton Mid Sleeves vs CSS 850++

Oh and if your machine shop is recommending a block guard which is all CSS really is, over real sleeves I wouldn't go back to them LOL.
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Old 08-10-2017, 06:24 AM
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Default Re: Darton Mid Sleeves vs CSS 850++

Originally Posted by AZ_CIVIC View Post
Oh and if your machine shop is recommending a block guard which is all CSS really is, over real sleeves I wouldn't go back to them LOL.
It's important to note that the CNCWerx CSS system is a properly installed and designed block guard however. "Press in" block guards never work the way they're supposed to, and just sit at the first couple millimeters of the top of the cylinder. Jeff (CNCWerx owner) installs all of the CSS systems himself and assures a perfect fit. The design itself also travels the full distance of the cylinder, not just the top, which allows for more equal distribution of cylinder forces.

While the CSS in essence really is just a cylinder brace/block guard, comparing that process to what most people think about with commercial "block guards" is completely unequal. There's a time and place where CSS can make more sense than sleeving, depending on budget opportunities and the intended power level.
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Old 08-10-2017, 06:57 AM
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Default Re: Darton Mid Sleeves vs CSS 850++

Originally Posted by Chance EG View Post
It's important to note that the CNCWerx CSS system is a properly installed and designed block guard however. "Press in" block guards never work the way they're supposed to, and just sit at the first couple millimeters of the top of the cylinder. Jeff (CNCWerx owner) installs all of the CSS systems himself and assures a perfect fit. The design itself also travels the full distance of the cylinder, not just the top, which allows for more equal distribution of cylinder forces.

While the CSS in essence really is just a cylinder brace/block guard, comparing that process to what most people think about with commercial "block guards" is completely unequal. There's a time and place where CSS can make more sense than sleeving, depending on budget opportunities and the intended power level.
This guy went to a machine shop with a power goal of 850whp plus, obviously the machine shop is aware of CSS since they recommended CSS. Now if the machine shop is worth **** they would understand the difference between a Darton Sleeve vs a stock Honda sleeve. So to recommend a process that is rated to 500whp when the guys goal is 850whp plus is kind of dumb to me.

It's like me saying I want to make 1200whp and asking my shop what gearset I should go with and they tell me heat treated stock gears over PPG. Just saying that is a weird recommendation to give with the guys power goals.
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Old 08-10-2017, 07:41 AM
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Default Re: Darton Mid Sleeves vs CSS 850++

there are guys making 800+ with css, but theres a reason that its not warrantied above 500. if you want your 850+ hp to be reliable enough to go rounds, get it sleeved.
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Old 08-10-2017, 11:50 AM
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Default Re: Darton Mid Sleeves vs CSS 850++

Originally Posted by AZ_CIVIC View Post
This guy went to a machine shop with a power goal of 850whp plus, obviously the machine shop is aware of CSS since they recommended CSS. Now if the machine shop is worth **** they would understand the difference between a Darton Sleeve vs a stock Honda sleeve. So to recommend a process that is rated to 500whp when the guys goal is 850whp plus is kind of dumb to me.

It's like me saying I want to make 1200whp and asking my shop what gearset I should go with and they tell me heat treated stock gears over PPG. Just saying that is a weird recommendation to give with the guys power goals.
Yep, completely agree, just wanted to tag that footnote in for the CSS process as it's worth more than your run of the mill block guard.
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Old 08-10-2017, 08:59 PM
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Default Re: Darton Mid Sleeves vs CSS 850++

Originally Posted by Chance EG View Post
Yep, completely agree, just wanted to tag that footnote in for the CSS process as it's worth more than your run of the mill block guard.
It better be... it costs a heck of a lot more $$$ than a run of the mill block guard. A quality ductile iron full sleeve job is the way to go at the OP's desired power level.
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Old 08-11-2017, 07:19 AM
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Default Re: Darton Mid Sleeves vs CSS 850++

I have CSS done to my motor. That pointed out, what risks are there with sleeves sinking on those Darton MIDs? Have we gotten to a point where this issue no longer exists? Does anyone here daily drive their cars with sleeves?
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Old 08-11-2017, 12:36 PM
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Default Re: Darton Mid Sleeves vs CSS 850++

Originally Posted by ShinsenTuner View Post
That pointed out, what risks are there with sleeves sinking on those Darton MIDs? Have we gotten to a point where this issue no longer exists? Does anyone here daily drive their cars with sleeves?
For reputable sleeves (LA, GE, Darton, etc) the issue of them sinking or shifting is almost entirely the result of an improper installation. Finding a good installer for the sleeve is more important than the sleeve itself, generally speaking.
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Old 08-11-2017, 01:12 PM
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Default Re: Darton Mid Sleeves vs CSS 850++

Originally Posted by ShinsenTuner View Post
I have CSS done to my motor. That pointed out, what risks are there with sleeves sinking on those Darton MIDs? Have we gotten to a point where this issue no longer exists? Does anyone here daily drive their cars with sleeves?
I daily drove on Darton MIDs for years, however my first Darton MID sleeved block had head gasket issues because of the local machine shop installer. I also Daily drove on my GE sleeved block as well, never had any issues.

Originally Posted by Chance EG View Post
For reputable sleeves (LA, GE, Darton, etc) the issue of them sinking or shifting is almost entirely the result of an improper installation. Finding a good installer for the sleeve is more important than the sleeve itself, generally speaking.
Exactly
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Old 02-15-2019, 06:14 AM
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Default Re: Darton Mid Sleeves vs CSS 850++

So you hear it from the company I have hundreds of customers making over 800wHP with the Standard CSS!!! With the High HP I've never seen anyone crack a sleeve under 900wHP with catastrophic failure.

In well over 3000 block worldwide we have only a handful of cracked blocks (non catastrophic failure). Most B20 which suck and we should stop doing all together and the other are all over 800wHP???

But in the end, full sleeves are stonger but not a better solution if you stay within the rated HP.

Guaratee and Rated are two different things also. Rated hp is a conservative number where we have seen many customers make well over with great success.
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Old 02-15-2019, 04:51 PM
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Default Re: Darton Mid Sleeves vs CSS 850++

Originally Posted by trickeng View Post
So you hear it from the company I have hundreds of customers making over 800wHP with the Standard CSS!!! With the High HP I've never seen anyone crack a sleeve under 900wHP with catastrophic failure.

In well over 3000 block worldwide we have only a handful of cracked blocks (non catastrophic failure). Most B20 which suck and we should stop doing all together and the other are all over 800wHP???

But in the end, full sleeves are stonger but not a better solution if you stay within the rated HP.

Guaratee and Rated are two different things also. Rated hp is a conservative number where we have seen many customers make well over with great success.
I just my block back from you guys and you did a amazing job! I cant wait to get this thing in the car
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