Me too. My car oversteers like a biatch! with the proper Koni settings.

 

Hey welcome to the board! Drifting/sliding whatever people call it is: FUN (when it doesn't go wrong!). There's nothing better than catching and correcting a huge tail out slide going 80+ mph. (well maybe breaking the track record would be better ) Drifting is all about show and is much less "concrete" than racing. The winner of a drift competition is the person with the most "artistic" drift. I don't really like all that much any competition in general where the outcome is determined by someone's impression of what you did. I like hard facts such as lap times or race results because they don't lie or have preferences - that's a reason why I like racing.

And to the question regarding if anyone here has drifted, I'm sure plenty of us on here have willingly or unwillingly done so. When I started racing, I wasn't feeling too comfortable pushing a car at high speed, which I think is normal. On the track I was always afraid of the inevitable thought of "what if the car just snaps around mysteriously on its own?". For a while I believed that a car just randomly looses traction and spins out. That's what kept me from going 100% on a track knowing that a large $$ dept may await you if the car happens to "suddenly" spin out. Then as many others have gone through, these (possible occasional spins at first) slides become more frequent as you drive harder and harder. At first I always had the feeling of being real lucky whenever I would pull off a recovery and thought that if this ever happened again I'm toast. But then I realized that all this happens for different reasons, not just mysteriously. A bit too fast on entry, an elevation change mid-turn, a lift or tap of the brakes mid-turn to avoid something, oil, rain, cold tires, etc.. are all factors that can play a huge part in sending you into an unintentional drift/slide.

The real good drivers are not afraid of this at all. They've drifted/slid/spun out so many times that it's almost second nature for them to catch it and keep going. It's not a big deal at all for them, in fact they get mad at themselves for loosing time in that turn, instead of being proud of themselves for the recovery. At first I remember I used to tell everybody of this one slide I had in turn x that weekend. Then I would watch the onboard of more experienced drivers and notice that they would have maybe several such incidents during their drive, but they don't even mention it because it's no big deal. These are also the people who are not afraid to push 100% in any condition: rain, cold tires, 10 inches away from someone's bumper in a 90+ mph turn, etc.. because they feel the car really well and understand what can happen and what would cause it to happen. In other words they are ready to react and most of the time they can even expect a slide (or lock up, etc.) before it happens. These are the kinds of drivers who understand how a car behaves and why, or better put, can feel where the edge of adhesion lies. They know what action would cause to over-step that limit and exactly how close they can get to that limit. Consequently, they are also very relaxed behind the wheels because they are in charge of the car; not wondering exactly how the car will behave or what if it does something unexpected in the next turn, like a lot of us still do. So when not racing for time, these guys could pull some really fancy drifts if they wanted to because they understand the mechanics, but much more important than understanding them, they can control the car to make it follow their intentions. The first part can be learned by reading books, but as we all know, seat time is the only way to learn the last part. And much more beneficial than making cool drifts, the person who can best get the car to do exactly what they want, will be the person taking pole position and be first across the finish line at the end.

So there goes another lunch break. Conclusion: drifting/sliding your car exactly how you want it every time does take a lot of skill and seat time. It's one of the skills that the fast racers we see on TV (and rally drivers of course!) posses.

p.s. I really wish I could have written about these kinds of topics back in English class.


[Modified by Hracer, 2:22 PM 1/31/2002]

 

Hey, I love drifting. The bent control arms on my civic are proof of this. he he. I discovered drifting after my S13 was totalled. Stupid drunks. When done right it's fun. Trying to control something out of control is one of the greatest feelings in the world. Anyways just do it in a safe place. I met a guy who has an AE86 and he enjoys it. Some people say it's not real competition. But then again there are people that say rock isn't music just heavily distorted guitars playing garbled notes. If you like it go for it. Just DO IT IN A SAFE PLACE!!! Anyways who's up for some initial D mountain racing. I'd do it.

 

Well,he and I are going this weekend if the weather permits.

So I'll get some video if we go.

But don't expect much,he doesn't have his Skyline or his S2K cleared through customs yet. So he'll be drifting the CRX and I in the Supra. I wish my RX-7 was ready,it was a SICK drift car and my Lude was too simply because I wasn't afraid of it.

 

And I am kind of surprised no one flamed you for posting this in here.

Most people in here didn't know there were competitions and wouldn't understand anyway.

It takes alot more skill than most people will ever know.

 

*sigh* I don't think anyone here EVER said that drifting DOESN'T take skill.

Their only contention is that it's not really "competition" and that it is SLOW.

And certain members think it's stupid. Requires skill but stupid.

 

LOL, that lift-throttle business might work with some cars... but as for a rental Cavalier, it has exactly no rotation built into the suspension tuning

 

Nor did I imply that you ever made any such accusations.

Just pisses me off that some people have to hate on something that makes someone else happy. Again SOME PEOPLE,not all.

Never would I slide through the rattlesnake ayt MSR,I'd get killed!

 

I don't think anyone here "hates" drifting (unless of course they once had a costly experience that all started with an innocent drift..). Everyone's point is that drifting around a corner is slower than taking it on the limit without stepping the tail out and countersteering. Again, to re-state: no body said drifting is slow, but just slower. Where does the impression that drifting does not take great skill to do it right come from? And yes, there are drifting competitions out there and I've seen plenty of videos, etc. They are very nice, but like I stated before, it's all an artistic show. It's not racing. And again, just because I say these things does not make me or anyone else who shares these views a "hater" of all drifting related things and people.

I don't understand why people always turn things around to make it suit their views. I guess it's human nature unfortunately.

 

Please note that every drifting argument that has taken place on this board has involved people stating that its the fastest way around a paved track OR people doing it on the street.
It's not a matter of hating what other people think is fun. Not at all.

And I'll say it again because nobody has produced it yet... Show me ONE recognized racing/driving/high performance vehicular piloting publication (no, not "super street") that claims that "drifting" is the fastest way around a paved course...

"It's actually quite a shame that power-on oversteer is not the fast way through a corner. It makes the drivers "feel" fast and thrills the spectators, but all it really accomplishes is accelerated tire use."
- Carroll Smith, "Drive to Win"

If youre doing it for fun, fine. But don't claim that it's faster. I have yet to see any top amatuer or pro road racer use this style (at least on purpose). If it was the fastest approach, wouldn't everybody be doing it?

 

In case I was misunderstood... I never meant to imply I felt it was the fastest way around a paved track. Everything I mentioned before was aimed at a gravel/dirt scenario, in which case it is apparent that rally-drifting is useful.

Chris, just making sure he's clear on where he stands.

 

Duh. Look down.

 

What Roadracer said.

Does it look fun? You bet.
Does it require skill? Ab-so-lutey

Haters? You're in a car, driving fast, and having fun. What's there to hate?

But try to tell me it's the fastest possible way to drive and I'll argue with you day and night. And I'll win, too.

 

No publications to cite from... but EVERY driver that drove tarmac section of the 2002 Monte Carlo Rally (WRC) drifted the car thru the "tight" turns.
I would say that a WRC driver might be considered a pro in the field.

Some severe slipage thru this turn. http://www.wrc.com/NR/rdonlyres/eufb...ec/Makinen.jpg

And it is faster.

Will
-who knows that a "road course" is not thru the middle of town

[sp]


[Modified by Willard, 6:17 PM 1/31/2002]

 

Probably had no choice due to having a car that is set up for dirt, gravel, and pavement. If the majority of the course was NOT paved, then the car was not set up for the pavement.

Scott, who didn't see any ITS drivers "drifting" at this year's ARRC.

 

I have seen those guys drift on tarmac and assumed the car setup forced it. I also thought those guys might not know how to turn without using tail-out jackassery

 

Haven't seen a locked thread in a few days. This is a good thing.

 

Voice of dissent incoming, but first...

Disclaimer #1 - doing this stuff on the street is stupid and dangerous
Disclaimer #2 - I know of some talented drivers of real race cars who have entered organized drifting events with some success (some kid named Millen, if what I heard was true).

WRC cars could be set up any darn way that the drivers and engineers want them - they test on tarmac surfaces for weeks to prepare for events. The set-up that the run can be assumed to be the best compromise given the changing conditions that the cars encounter but, even somewhere like Corsica (where rain, snow, etc. isn't the issue that it is on the Monte), the cars slide around tight turns. This is the right (read "fast") answer for them, given the HP, tires and grip available. Even the S1600 cars behave this way on hard surfaces, though the dynamics are different.

This does NOT make this answer the preferable one for an IT car at Road Atlanta but then, the solution for that driver/car/track combination is really not an argument against the Sainz/WRC/Corsica situation either.

There was, having said all of that, a guy that ran in the 2-litre CanAm (in its last iteration, mid-late '70s) by the name of Bertil Roos - you may have seen his name associated with the race school and other things since then. He used a technique wherein he pitched the car sideways a LONG way from what would be the generally accepted "drivers school" turn-in, established the slip angles of all four tires almost instantaneously, and then powered through the corner. If you have never seen the video, you have missed out. He was also faster than snot using the technique that he later called "slideways", if I recall correctly.

Some other talented drivers used this technique (FAtlantic, F2, F3, SVee) before the advent of ground effects, at which point it became necessary to keep the car pointed straight in the direction of travel to avoid "stalling" the tunnels.

How about sprint cars? DIRT stockers? Rally cars (AWD, FWD and RWD) on surfaces other than tarmac? No question that, if that technique was translated to dry pavement, tire wear would skyrocket but it is something to think about. The coefficient of friction may vary between surfaces but how much do the fundamental vehicle dymanics change?

Food for thought...

Kirk

BTW - Knestis used to be Konistis, just two generations ago...




[Modified by Knestis, 12:50 AM 2/1/2002]

 

Now what you are talking about is completely different from the drifting events mentioned above.

 

The FIA rally guys do drift on tarmac stages. BTW, my co-driver has years of rally experience, so I've heard a few things here and there. In case that not everyone is familiar why drifting is used at on dirt, snow, etc, here's briefly why. On dirt without drifting, only the front two tires are involved in turning the car and keeping it on the line. Since the grip coefficient is very low, you'll have to be going very slow to take a turn in the dirt without plowing. A 4-wheel drive rally car when sideways and ON the power, uses all 4 tires to keep it on line and accelerating in roughly the direction of the turn. On dirt there you can go faster through a turn by having four tires spinning under you pointing in the direction you want to go, then just traditionally steering with two tires. On tarmac, having the car sideways kills speed because now the greater coefficient of friction works against you by scrubbing off speed. Adding everything up, on tarmac steering with the two front wheels will be slightly faster simply because of the excess speed that is scrubbed off when taking the turn in a slide on tarmac, even with all 4 tires frantically trying to accelerate the car in the direction of the turn. Now keep in mind, the difference in speed here is minimal.

In rally, the turns in which the drivers drift in are tighter corners or hairpins. You rarely see them drift in a 5th or 6th gear turns. The main reason why they do it is simply due to the width of the road and the short length of each corner. You can barely fit one car through most of the tarmac roads they use. Plus the majority of turns are not long sweepers where keeping a long slide will scrub off too much speed to be effective. In fact in the longer sweeping turns, they very very rarely slide through it. The fact that the turns are so short, sliding slows them down very little, but on the other hand, they do get the car to rotate very effectively and the fact that they have 4 wheels accelerating under power keeps their speed up in a slide. If the roads would be about 3 to 4 times wider where you can effectively use the racing "line" through the turn and if the corners weren't so short, they would not be sliding at all. It wouldn't be any different than driving around any conventional race track. And I can bet on anything that if you got one of the rally drivers and told them to go as fast as they can around any racetrack, they would NOT drift even in their rally cars.

 

I bet they may try it once or twice...

Will

 

i think cheap bastard is right, we have gotten away from the original topic at hand
we know we can argue real race time drifting versus real race time non drifting situations
but one of the facts is that it is on a controlled course with professional drivers

we are intially talking drifting as a competition with looks in mind instead of the fastest way around the corner

 

I was just suggesting some specific counters to the "drifting is slow" generalization that came out of the earlier posts.

K

 

oh yeah I know, and all the information is great

 

Hahahahaha!

So much logical thought going into defending throwing your car sideways into a turn and sliding sideways through it. Does anyone else find this as amusing as I do.

I used to drift my RX-7,but I had to MAKE IT drift,the car was set-up for road courses,so it wasn't really suited to loosing traction

I have been driving this car for a LONG time and believe me,If I want to race a road course,I will simply drive the car because that's what it's set-up for,to drift the car,I had to grow some HUGE ***** and drive the car WAY beyond it's limits.