Street Classes: Rollcage tie-in to strut tower questions
08-04-2004, 10:19 PM
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Street Classes: Rollcage tie-in to strut tower questions
According to the SFWD rules you can't have any non OEM tubing in the engine compartment except to tie in the strut towers to the rollcage. I searched on here but didnt find much talking about benefits and whatnot, although most people I have talked to seem to think its a good idea to reduce chassis flex with higher HP motors. I have a couple questions I am hoping to get some help with.
1. I realize the picture below is a hotrod car, please ignore the fact that its all cut up and has tubing in the entire engine bay...I am only talking about the tubes that go to the strut towers. Would this setup be legal (1 bar going from the side of the cage and 1 bar going through the firewall from the crossbar, both to the strut tower on each side)?
2. If this setup is good to go, what about the brake master cylinder? It would definately be in the way of the diagonal bar on the drivers side. It seems to me you could relocate the resevoir in the same manner that the clutch resevoir is (gravity fed, remote location). Any ideas?
3. Is any of this even worth bothering with? The diaganol bars are probably going to make engine work more of a pain in the *** as well...I'm wondering if its all a big waste of time. Would just the 1 bar on each side going from the cage to the strut tower be a better idea?
Any comments about this subject would be greatly appreciated. The cost to add these strut tower bars is negligable when getting the cage done anyway.
1. I realize the picture below is a hotrod car, please ignore the fact that its all cut up and has tubing in the entire engine bay...I am only talking about the tubes that go to the strut towers. Would this setup be legal (1 bar going from the side of the cage and 1 bar going through the firewall from the crossbar, both to the strut tower on each side)?
2. If this setup is good to go, what about the brake master cylinder? It would definately be in the way of the diagonal bar on the drivers side. It seems to me you could relocate the resevoir in the same manner that the clutch resevoir is (gravity fed, remote location). Any ideas?
3. Is any of this even worth bothering with? The diaganol bars are probably going to make engine work more of a pain in the *** as well...I'm wondering if its all a big waste of time. Would just the 1 bar on each side going from the cage to the strut tower be a better idea?
Any comments about this subject would be greatly appreciated. The cost to add these strut tower bars is negligable when getting the cage done anyway.
08-04-2004, 11:37 PM
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Re: Street Classes: Rollcage tie-in to strut tower questions (bomber)
good question... I too would like to noe more on this subject...
in my own opinion, i think what you are talking about would reduce flexing... I noe on my car when putting the car on jack stands, from the firewall to the front of the car sags about an inch, once i let the jack down. I was looking for a way to eliminate that, but going by what the rules say, i never considered connecting the strut towers to my cage.
Mike...
in my own opinion, i think what you are talking about would reduce flexing... I noe on my car when putting the car on jack stands, from the firewall to the front of the car sags about an inch, once i let the jack down. I was looking for a way to eliminate that, but going by what the rules say, i never considered connecting the strut towers to my cage.
Mike...
08-05-2004, 05:59 AM
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Re: Street Classes: Rollcage tie-in to strut tower questions (jerseykid609)
It may be proven, but i've seen some cars on the dyno with no chassis work up front and with big HP, and the front ends on those cars flex like crazy during a pull...I can only imagine what the front ends do during a really hard launch. I don't see how that could ever possibly be considered safe.
I think that one bar going from the shock tower to the cage is needed... i don't think i'd go with that diagonal bar for a street-class car though.
I think that one bar going from the shock tower to the cage is needed... i don't think i'd go with that diagonal bar for a street-class car though.
08-05-2004, 07:17 AM
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Re: Street Classes: Rollcage tie-in to strut tower questions (Group Tenacity)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Group Tenacity »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I was looking for a way to eliminate that, but going by what the rules say, i never considered connecting the strut towers to my cage.
Mike...</TD></TR></TABLE>
The rules say you can tie the cage into the strut towers (at least the NHRA rules do, I havent read the other classes)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jerseykid609 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i dont think u need any of that in a street car. It as been proven that u can go mid 9's to low 10's with not alot of complex cagework or suspention. </TD></TR></TABLE>
You could absolutely run some great times without a strengthening the chassis...but I am just thinking that if its legal and doesnt even add 5% to the total cost of the rollcage that is already being built it might not be a bad idea?
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ComposiMo »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It may be proven, but i've seen some cars on the dyno with no chassis work up front and with big HP, and the front ends on those cars flex like crazy during a pull...I can only imagine what the front ends do during a really hard launch. I don't see how that could ever possibly be considered safe.
I think that one bar going from the shock tower to the cage is needed... i don't think i'd go with that diagonal bar for a street-class car though.</TD></TR></TABLE>
You think I would be ok with just a single bar to the strut tower on each side? The diaganol bars would be a pain, but it seems like it would great increase the strength (I am not sure if it would be walking the tightrope of sfwd legality tho).
Mike...</TD></TR></TABLE>
The rules say you can tie the cage into the strut towers (at least the NHRA rules do, I havent read the other classes)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jerseykid609 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i dont think u need any of that in a street car. It as been proven that u can go mid 9's to low 10's with not alot of complex cagework or suspention. </TD></TR></TABLE>
You could absolutely run some great times without a strengthening the chassis...but I am just thinking that if its legal and doesnt even add 5% to the total cost of the rollcage that is already being built it might not be a bad idea?
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ComposiMo »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It may be proven, but i've seen some cars on the dyno with no chassis work up front and with big HP, and the front ends on those cars flex like crazy during a pull...I can only imagine what the front ends do during a really hard launch. I don't see how that could ever possibly be considered safe.
I think that one bar going from the shock tower to the cage is needed... i don't think i'd go with that diagonal bar for a street-class car though.</TD></TR></TABLE>
You think I would be ok with just a single bar to the strut tower on each side? The diaganol bars would be a pain, but it seems like it would great increase the strength (I am not sure if it would be walking the tightrope of sfwd legality tho).
08-05-2004, 03:44 PM
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Re: Street Classes: Rollcage tie-in to strut tower questions (bomber)
I'm building a sportfwd car right now, and I started wondering the same thing. I think the cage would prove safer if it were tied into the front shock towers, but I'm not exactly sure how well it would work with stock bodywork (fenders, hood), so I planned on skipping this step.
As the rules say "Non-OEM tubing in front of firewall prohibited except to tie shock towers to roll cage." So it's legal, but the diagonal bars are questionable. That's not just "tying" the roll cage to the shock towers. Here's our hotrod car, I think that this is the extent that you can do it, but I think that's it. Just fitting it around stock body work is the problem.
As the rules say "Non-OEM tubing in front of firewall prohibited except to tie shock towers to roll cage." So it's legal, but the diagonal bars are questionable. That's not just "tying" the roll cage to the shock towers. Here's our hotrod car, I think that this is the extent that you can do it, but I think that's it. Just fitting it around stock body work is the problem.
08-05-2004, 03:59 PM
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Re: Street Classes: Rollcage tie-in to strut tower questions (Quik Chris)
.<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Quik Chris »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm building a sportfwd car right now, and I started wondering the same thing. I think the cage would prove safer if it were tied into the front shock towers, but I'm not exactly sure how well it would work with stock bodywork (fenders, hood), so I planned on skipping this step.
As the rules say "Non-OEM tubing in front of firewall prohibited except to tie shock towers to roll cage." So it's legal, but the diagonal bars are questionable. That's not just "tying" the roll cage to the shock towers. Here's our hotrod car, I think that this is the extent that you can do it, but I think that's it. Just fitting it around stock body work is the problem.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yea the diagonal bars are probably out for me either way...less room, have to relocate brake master cylinder, questionable legality, etc.
When the rules say you can add in the tubing can you actually go all the way to the support like in that picture? Or does the tubing have to actually terminate at the strut tower?
I see your point about the body panels, but the cage builder said its not an issue...so I figure if he can do it I will take advantage
As the rules say "Non-OEM tubing in front of firewall prohibited except to tie shock towers to roll cage." So it's legal, but the diagonal bars are questionable. That's not just "tying" the roll cage to the shock towers. Here's our hotrod car, I think that this is the extent that you can do it, but I think that's it. Just fitting it around stock body work is the problem.
</TD></TR></TABLE>Yea the diagonal bars are probably out for me either way...less room, have to relocate brake master cylinder, questionable legality, etc.
When the rules say you can add in the tubing can you actually go all the way to the support like in that picture? Or does the tubing have to actually terminate at the strut tower?
I see your point about the body panels, but the cage builder said its not an issue...so I figure if he can do it I will take advantage
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08-05-2004, 04:05 PM
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Re: Street Classes: Rollcage tie-in to strut tower questions (bomber)
my sfwd integra has bars from the front of the cage coming thru the firewalland welded to plates on the back of the shock tower.
08-05-2004, 06:20 PM
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Re: Street Classes: Rollcage tie-in to strut tower questions (bomber)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bomber »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">.
Yea the diagonal bars are probably out for me either way...less room, have to relocate brake master cylinder, questionable legality, etc.
When the rules say you can add in the tubing can you actually go all the way to the support like in that picture? Or does the tubing have to actually terminate at the strut tower?
I see your point about the body panels, but the cage builder said its not an issue...so I figure if he can do it I will take advantage</TD></TR></TABLE>
I don't think it would make it much more ridged with them terminating at the tower, plus, sfi specs state that if it does terminate there, you'd have to weld a steel plate (forgot the size) at the termination point, and you can't have an open bar-end on your cage, so I think it has to go down to the unibody. Sometimes I've seen guys go through the shock tower instead of adjacent to it like in our hotrod car, I think that would probably be the best way to take care of this problem, and it would work ok with the stock pannels. Looks like we have an answer cut out with a hole saw-- just watch those upper control arms' swing path.
Yea the diagonal bars are probably out for me either way...less room, have to relocate brake master cylinder, questionable legality, etc.
When the rules say you can add in the tubing can you actually go all the way to the support like in that picture? Or does the tubing have to actually terminate at the strut tower?
I see your point about the body panels, but the cage builder said its not an issue...so I figure if he can do it I will take advantage</TD></TR></TABLE>
I don't think it would make it much more ridged with them terminating at the tower, plus, sfi specs state that if it does terminate there, you'd have to weld a steel plate (forgot the size) at the termination point, and you can't have an open bar-end on your cage, so I think it has to go down to the unibody. Sometimes I've seen guys go through the shock tower instead of adjacent to it like in our hotrod car, I think that would probably be the best way to take care of this problem, and it would work ok with the stock pannels. Looks like we have an answer cut out with a hole saw-- just watch those upper control arms' swing path.
08-05-2004, 06:39 PM
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Re: Street Classes: Rollcage tie-in to strut tower questions (Quik Chris)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Quik Chris »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I don't think it would make it much more ridged with them terminating at the tower, plus, sfi specs state that if it does terminate there, you'd have to weld a steel plate (forgot the size) at the termination point, and you can't have an open bar-end on your cage, so I think it has to go down to the unibody. Sometimes I've seen guys go through the shock tower instead of adjacent to it like in our hotrod car, I think that would probably be the best way to take care of this problem, and it would work ok with the stock pannels. Looks like we have an answer cut out with a hole saw-- just watch those upper control arms' swing path. </TD></TR></TABLE>
6x6x.25. I will try to find some pics and post them
I don't think it would make it much more ridged with them terminating at the tower, plus, sfi specs state that if it does terminate there, you'd have to weld a steel plate (forgot the size) at the termination point, and you can't have an open bar-end on your cage, so I think it has to go down to the unibody. Sometimes I've seen guys go through the shock tower instead of adjacent to it like in our hotrod car, I think that would probably be the best way to take care of this problem, and it would work ok with the stock pannels. Looks like we have an answer cut out with a hole saw-- just watch those upper control arms' swing path.
</TD></TR></TABLE>6x6x.25. I will try to find some pics and post them
08-05-2004, 06:45 PM
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Re: Street Classes: Rollcage tie-in to strut tower questions (Quik Chris)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Quik Chris »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I don't think it would make it much more ridged with them terminating at the tower, plus, sfi specs state that if it does terminate there, you'd have to weld a steel plate (forgot the size) at the termination point, and you can't have an open bar-end on your cage, so I think it has to go down to the unibody. Sometimes I've seen guys go through the shock tower instead of adjacent to it like in our hotrod car, I think that would probably be the best way to take care of this problem, and it would work ok with the stock pannels. Looks like we have an answer cut out with a hole saw-- just watch those upper control arms' swing path. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Yea...but like I have run into with other SFWD rules it always seems to be a gray area. Actually I thought the rollcage stuff was pretty cut and dry but the more I read the more I am seeing a lot of gray area in this too
Going through the tower is a good idea, but I still would like to get clarification on if its legal to go all the way to the support or not. I will go as far as I am able...hopefully its cool because I agree that it would be more rigid than terminating at the tower itself.
I am bringing all these ideas (plus pics) with me to the cage builder tomorrow...so keep it coming
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 30psiCiv »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
6x6x.25. I will try to find some pics and post them</TD></TR></TABLE>
Please do...the car goes under the knife tomorrow night so I am trying to get as many examples as I can
I don't think it would make it much more ridged with them terminating at the tower, plus, sfi specs state that if it does terminate there, you'd have to weld a steel plate (forgot the size) at the termination point, and you can't have an open bar-end on your cage, so I think it has to go down to the unibody. Sometimes I've seen guys go through the shock tower instead of adjacent to it like in our hotrod car, I think that would probably be the best way to take care of this problem, and it would work ok with the stock pannels. Looks like we have an answer cut out with a hole saw-- just watch those upper control arms' swing path.
</TD></TR></TABLE>Yea...but like I have run into with other SFWD rules it always seems to be a gray area. Actually I thought the rollcage stuff was pretty cut and dry but the more I read the more I am seeing a lot of gray area in this too
Going through the tower is a good idea, but I still would like to get clarification on if its legal to go all the way to the support or not. I will go as far as I am able...hopefully its cool because I agree that it would be more rigid than terminating at the tower itself.
I am bringing all these ideas (plus pics) with me to the cage builder tomorrow...so keep it coming
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 30psiCiv »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
6x6x.25. I will try to find some pics and post them</TD></TR></TABLE>
Please do...the car goes under the knife tomorrow night so I am trying to get as many examples as I can
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