snoochtodanooch

i just like using coaxials because most of the time they are a whole lot cheaper than a decent mid with crossover. i have they around 90 dollar infinity speakers in the rear of my car and they sound ok. But you also have to understand i don't have much of a stage as it is. I only have the tweets facing me from the stock tweeter position in a 94 ex, and mids in the stock location with no dynamat. THey are mb quartz and sound great, but i would do it all over again if i had the time. Kickpanels. Sound deadening. dedicated mids in the deck lid. bigger sealed box for sub, fit around quarterpanel well.

bassisliffe

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EBP_SI &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

yeah but you also seem to think you can get bass without having a sub.

I've got a front stage only setup right now with alpine type-x in kick panels. i also have somewhere in my closet a pair of type-R 6x9's from when i got the car. i had the 6x9's in there for a couple of months and then took them out cause i hated the sound. 2 years later they're still collecting dust. i just dont see how anyone can think that sounds good. The imaging is all fuzzy and all over the place.

i think the problem is that you guys havent heard a good setup and are happy having it playing loud with no imaging. my 2 cents.....flame on.


bass...its about damn time you saw the light...
</TD></TR></TABLE>



<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Odessa &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Do they make one way speakers? I don't think I've seeing any...</TD></TR></TABLE>

are you serious? ive used over 10 different one way speakers... from 6-8 inch...

Odessa

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bassisliffe &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> are you serious? ive used over 10 different one way speakers... from 6-8 inch...</TD></TR></TABLE>

6x9?

snoochtodanooch

yea they make 6x9 mids, check crutchfield or any other decent online store.
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-m...CE269 thats a component system, but you get the idea. i am pretty sure you can get mids in 6x9, but most likely if you are using stand alone mids you would just go with 6 1/2 or something, they sound a little better.


Modified by snoochtodanooch at 1:38 PM 11/11/2004

EBP_SI

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Odessa &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

You can, but not as much as with a sub.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

well i guess that depends what you consider bass to actually be. show me a 6x9 that will play between 20hz and 50hz and keep up with my mids.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

In my car you can't really tell that rears are playing, as they blend in together with fronts and my sub. You can also clearly hear the sound is mainly coming from the front. 4 speakers sound much fuller and tighter than 2...I think it's simple logic. Maybe you just gave up on the rears too early, without playing with settings long enough...or maybe type r's aren't that good in the rears...this is what I have:

</TD></TR></TABLE>

maybe you need to work on your front stage a little more then.

as far as 4 speakers sounding tighter than 2 being simple logic i fail to see that considering a CD still only has a left and right channel. theres not left front and left rear channel.

how do you handle cancellation and time alignment between teh front and rears?


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
The same thing can be said about you as well </TD></TR></TABLE>

meh....i'm using my home system as a reference to how things should sound and i'll tell you right now its probably better than about 90% of car audio systems out there.

btw...where in ontario are you?

Odessa

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EBP_SI &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">well i guess that depends what you consider bass to actually be. show me a 6x9 that will play between 20hz and 50hz and keep up with my mids. </TD></TR></TABLE>

But they can play fine 50hz+ at moderate sound levels. And it ain't that bad.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EBP_SI &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">as far as 4 speakers sounding tighter than 2 being simple logic i fail to see that considering a CD still only has a left and right channel. theres not left front and left rear channel. </TD></TR></TABLE>

The moment I disconnected my rears I knew right away that something is missing in my sound. It felt handicapped, seriously... 4 speakers sound louder and more powerfull than 2, thus leaving 2 speakers-only systems behind. It's the same as listening to a solo or to a choir - which one is going to sound louder and more powerfull? And if 2 speakers are better, then why car manufacturers waste our money on 2 useless rear speakers?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EBP_SI &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">how do you handle cancellation and time alignment between teh front and rears? </TD></TR></TABLE>

I thought this is something Pioneer engineers had to worry about.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EBP_SI &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> meh....i'm using my home system as a reference to how things should sound and i'll tell you right now its probably better than about 90% of car audio systems out there. </TD></TR></TABLE>

And how do you compare home systems to car systems? They have different environments and play by different rules. It's like comparing a car to a boat - which one rides smoother?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EBP_SI &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">btw...where in ontario are you?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm in St. Catharines.

EBP_SI

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Odessa &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
The moment I disconnected my rears I knew right away that something is missing in my sound. It felt handicapped, seriously... 4 speakers sound louder and more powerfull than 2, thus leaving 2 speakers-only systems behind. It's the same as listening to a solo or to a choir - which one is going to sound louder and more powerfull? </TD></TR></TABLE>

ok. now have the choir recite a sentence, then have a single person recite the same thing. which one is going to be more accurate and in sync. what if that one person could yell just as loud as the choir.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">And if 2 speakers are better, then why car manufacturers waste our money on 2 useless rear speakers?</TD></TR></TABLE>

i'd say teh same reason they put the mid and tweeter 2 feet apart and mounted the mid flat on the doors when the drivers have horrible off axis response. they really dont know much about audio.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I thought this is something Pioneer engineers had to worry about.</TD></TR></TABLE>

this is somethign you should be worrying about now that you have multiple drivers playing the same frequency at different distances and locations.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
And how do you compare home systems to car systems? They have different environments and play by different rules. It's like comparing a car to a boat - which one rides smoother?</TD></TR></TABLE>

while the enviroment is different the goal is still the same, to accurately reproduce the source played. just because its in a car, it doesnt mean you shouldnt be expected to have decent imaging.

bassisliffe

you 2 get a room!

or msn :crookL

Odessa

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EBP_SI &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ok. now have the choir recite a sentence, then have a single person recite the same thing. which one is going to be more accurate and in sync. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I don't think this analogy goes that far, 'cause speakers play the "same thing", unlike a choir, which has different voices and which are not 100% in sync with each other.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EBP_SI &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">what if that one person could yell just as loud as the choir.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Here you go...the choir doesn't have to yell, but 1 person does! And which is more pleasant: yelling or normal talking/singing? This is exactly the feeling I was getting with 2 speakers: they are yelling, not talking...which kind of irritated me.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EBP_SI &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i'd say teh same reason they put the mid and tweeter 2 feet apart and mounted the mid flat on the doors when the drivers have horrible off axis response. they really dont know much about audio. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Ok, I hope one day they hire you then

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EBP_SI &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">this is somethign you should be worrying about now that you have multiple drivers playing the same frequency at different distances and locations. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Why me? I'm not the one who's playing the cd, lol...it's the cd player! It's his job to make sure everything sounds right...all I can do is tweak a bit with whatever flexibility it has. And to tell you the truth, I don't really notice any issues with timing. I drive a 2dr car and fronts and rears are about the same distance from my ears. By the way, left speaker is closer to you than the right speaker, do you find it to be a problem?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EBP_SI &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">while the enviroment is different the goal is still the same, to accurately reproduce the source played. just because its in a car, it doesnt mean you shouldnt be expected to have decent imaging.</TD></TR></TABLE>

But accoustical characteristics are different. Car has more of a surround effect, even with 2 speakers...you still get a feeling that some of the sound is coming from the rear. While I had only 2 speakers in my car, my passengers were like: huh, what?...you only have 2 speakers playing in the car? No one had a damn clue that rears were "sleeping".

snoochtodanooch

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Odessa &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Why me? I'm not the one who's playing the cd, lol...it's the cd player! It's his job to make sure everything sounds right...all I can do is tweak a bit with whatever flexibility it has. And to tell you the truth, I don't really notice any issues with timing. I drive a 2dr car and fronts and rears are about the same distance from my ears. By the way, left speaker is closer to you than the right speaker, do you find it to be a problem? </TD></TR></TABLE>

he probably has kick panels or something that brings the distances much closer together, then he probably finishes it off with time correction. It comes on lots of high end HUs, alpine has it on quite a few. and trust us, the right rear speaker is really ******* far away. You should measure, you would be surprised what % it is off from the rest.

EBP_SI

i do have kickpanels and while my 7995 does have time correction i rarely use it because the more you align it to one side the worse it sounds on the other.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I don't think this analogy goes that far, 'cause speakers play the "same thing", unlike a choir, which has different voices and which are not 100% in sync with each other.</TD></TR></TABLE>

so in other words you're saying the analogy you used doesnt work? my point was that yes 2 speakers will generally be louder than one. but 1 will have more focus and detail. you can also get speakers that will play the same volume as the 2 drivers without distortion. the single driver option will produce a more powerful end result.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">This is exactly the feeling I was getting with 2 speakers: they are yelling, not talking...which kind of irritated me.</TD></TR></TABLE>

maybe they're shitty speakers.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Why me? I'm not the one who's playing the cd, lol...it's the cd player! It's his job to make sure everything sounds right...all I can do is tweak a bit with whatever flexibility it has. And to tell you the truth, I don't really notice any issues with timing. I drive a 2dr car and fronts and rears are about the same distance from my ears. By the way, left speaker is closer to you than the right speaker, do you find it to be a problem? </TD></TR></TABLE>

and its the equalizers job to adjust the sound to suit your preferences right? and the amps set gains automatically? how does the HU know where in the car the speakers are mounted and with what input is it supposed to adjust them? does the HU know if you wired up one of the speakers out of phase and invert the signal to correct that? if your HU does all of this i'll gladly drive to st catherines and shake your hand and ask you where you bought it. you are aware that to achieve the best possible sound with any piece of equipment you have to set it up.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">But accoustical characteristics are different. Car has more of a surround effect, even with 2 speakers...you still get a feeling that some of the sound is coming from the rear. While I had only 2 speakers in my car, my passengers were like: huh, what?...you only have 2 speakers playing in the car? No one had a damn clue that rears were "sleeping".</TD></TR></TABLE>

thats a facinating arguement. sounds almost like you're supporting a front stage only setup. i dont get it... look at any high end stereo and its gonna have 2 main speakers for stereo music. with those 2 speakers they create an image of the source and virtually disappear. its just sound from far left to far right. now you take the same idea in a car, perfect imaging with good width etc. now since its in a car its got more of a surround feel according to you and some sound appears to be coming from the back. now this as if this sound coming from the back isnt bad enough for the imaging you want to thow some drivers playing the same channels as teh front in the rear to accomplish what?? i think you jsut lost this arguement to yourself

Odessa

So you're saying that even with 2 speakers the sound is messed up?

It works, but every analogy has its limtits. I used it to demonstrate that 10 people are louder and better sounding than 1 person. Even though 1 person can be as loud or even louder than 10 people, that doesn't make him "better" sounding, because at this point if he's not choking (distorting), then he's yelling. And the reason why your analogy didn't work, is because people are humans, and speakers are "robots"...so you can't expect from 10 humans to be 100% in sync, but you can expect that from speakers.

So why don't you go with one speaker then?

6.5 polks powered by a PG amp (75x4). Sounds clean with volume all the way up (with bass down and gain set to about 80%).

Actually, my hu has an option for automatic eq adjustment, it even has a mic for that...I never tried it though, I'm too lazy

Well, I was talking with an assumption, that "abc" stuff was way past behind us, like mounting speakers, wiring them, tuning amp/hu, etc...

No, but you forgot that 4 speakers sound louder than 2. That's the whole problem with fronts only.

I want it to have a stronger, more pleasant sound and also have a better rear fill, as 2 speakers in the front don't seem enough.

ShaunRR

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EBP_SI &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">well i guess that depends what you consider bass to actually be. show me a 6x9 that will play between 20hz and 50hz and keep up with my mids. </TD></TR></TABLE>

What about a set of Adire Koda 8's in the rear deck with enclosures behind them? This is a setup I have been considering. I'm really liking what this setup has to offer for a daily driver.

Maybe its not a fair comparison for the argument since they are 8's though.

Odessa

Here, look at PG's sunfire demo car. 6 speakers in the front (they really don't know what the hell they're doing)



And is that a rear speaker I see?

EBP_SI

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rochesterricer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

What about a set of Adire Koda 8's in the rear deck with enclosures behind them? This is a setup I have been considering. I'm really liking what this setup has to offer for a daily driver.

Maybe its not a fair comparison for the argument since they are 8's though.</TD></TR></TABLE>

well i think they'll provide amazing midbass performance but i'm not sure about the low lows. i've never actually seen the drivers in action so i cant comment. i know i'm ordering a pair of dynaudio 8's but i'm planning on having them in the doors. i think putting them in teh doors is just as much work as the rear deck so why not put them up front?

EBP_SI

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Odessa &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Here, look at PG's sunfire demo car. 6 speakers in the front (they really don't know what the hell they're doing)



And is that a rear speaker I see?

</TD></TR></TABLE>

genious....thats a show car. has it won any SQ competitions? look at alpine's demo vehicles too. what do you think would happen to their sales of rear speakers if they came out and said rear speakers arent good for imaging. hell they'd mount them in the wheels if that would increase the sales. all it has to do at a show is look good and play loud. they want to fit as many of their products into their demo cars as possible in hopes that you'll do the same. oh and btw...its got a dvd player and a center channel along with a 5.1 source too so nice try.

any other attempts?

if you wait until tomorrow i'll give you some pro rear speaker arguements to help you along.

Odessa

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EBP_SI &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

any other attempts?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Sure Way to screw up a nice M3




You actually need a poster of that one hanging in your room


And that's a customer car, but I understand, not all customers are smart.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EBP_SI &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">if you wait until tomorrow i'll give you some pro rear speaker arguements to help you along. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I can wait. And do they ALWAYS use 2 fronts-only in sq competitions??

ShaunRR

Maybe we should link to the other thread we had this argument in.

rcurley55

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Odessa &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">And do they ALWAYS use 2 fronts-only in sq competitions?? </TD></TR></TABLE>

no, I've seen two way, three way, an four way used in competition....

The crux of the conversation is this - do you want a car that truely images and stages well. If yes - then 99% of the time, if possible you don't want speakers that play behind you.

If you aren't that insterested in a stage that is absolutely true to what the artist intended, then it really doesn't matter. Same goes if you just want lots of sound. 95%+ of all consumers fit into this category....

Remember show vehicles are built to gain attention, wow consumers and sell product.....there are only a few that sound good

bassisliffe

what rcurley said above is 100% true

i didnt believe until i tuned my components thouroughly

it toiok days

but i got it, i cannot tell if there are rear speakers or not!

EBP_SI

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Odessa &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

So you're saying that even with 2 speakers the sound is messed up?
</TD></TR></TABLE>

what i'm saying is that car audio is a sacrifice in most cases. what i meant was i'll live with a slightly right biased stage in order to have both seats image very well. sure i can make my seat sound a little better but the passenger seat will sound messed up.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
It works, but every analogy has its limtits. I used it to demonstrate that 10 people are louder and better sounding than 1 person. Even though 1 person can be as loud or even louder than 10 people, that doesn't make him "better" sounding, because at this point if he's not choking (distorting), then he's yelling. And the reason why your analogy didn't work, is because people are humans, and speakers are "robots"...so you can't expect from 10 humans to be 100% in sync, but you can expect that from speakers.</TD></TR></TABLE>

ok but now you're talking about the actual style of the vocals. the fact is if you have a speaker in the front and a speaker in the back playing the same vocals, unless the speakers are 100% perfectly aligned distance wise from the listener, the sound from each driver will reach the listener at different times making the imaging confusing.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
So why don't you go with one speaker then?
</TD></TR></TABLE>

if i was playing a mono source i probably would but since i have a 2 channel source i'm using 2 channels. left and right.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
6.5 polks powered by a PG amp (75x4). Sounds clean with volume all the way up (with bass down and gain set to about 80%). </TD></TR></TABLE>

i'll reserve my opinion

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Well, I was talking with an assumption, that "abc" stuff was way past behind us, like mounting speakers, wiring them, tuning amp/hu, etc...</TD></TR></TABLE>

well i consider phasing and time alignment to be part of this "abc" setup of the system

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
No, but you forgot that 4 speakers sound louder than 2. That's the whole problem with fronts only. </TD></TR></TABLE>

so now you're trying to say that a front stage only system isnt loud enough?
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I want it to have a stronger, more pleasant sound and also have a better rear fill, as 2 speakers in the front don't seem enough. </TD></TR></TABLE>

well in that case i'd lump you into the 95% all i'll ask you is this. have you ever heard a stereo that truely images well. if so, what was it?

snoochtodanooch

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Odessa &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
And is that a rear speaker I see?

</TD></TR></TABLE>
come on now, at least get a better example of a rear speaker. that **** is good for nothing. Its inside the trunk for christ's sake and its a coaxial. That thing couldn't be heard from the drivers seat if it was the only speaker in the car, and if you could hear it, it would sound terrible.

Odessa

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by snoochtodanooch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> come on now, at least get a better example of a rear speaker. that **** is good for nothing. Its inside the trunk for christ's sake and its a coaxial. That thing couldn't be heard from the drivers seat if it was the only speaker in the car, and if you could hear it, it would sound terrible. </TD></TR></TABLE>

It's not inside the trunk, look closer, it's the rear sit.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by snoochtodanooch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">and its a coaxial</TD></TR></TABLE>

What a racist comment

Odessa

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EBP_SI &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">what i'm saying is that car audio is a sacrifice in most cases. what i meant was i'll live with a slightly right biased stage in order to have both seats image very well. sure i can make my seat sound a little better but the passenger seat will sound messed up.</TD></TR></TABLE>

There you go, you have to compromise... Same thing you have to compromise when you have passengers in the back sit and when you want a "choir" in your car, instead of a one/two screaming and choking maniacs.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EBP_SI &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ok but now you're talking about the actual style of the vocals. the fact is if you have a speaker in the front and a speaker in the back playing the same vocals, unless the speakers are 100% perfectly aligned distance wise from the listener, the sound from each driver will reach the listener at different times making the imaging confusing.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I never noticed it being confusing, but again, I must be deaf My car doesn't have 2 sources of sound, it has only one, 'cause they blend in very nicely together and you can't really say that here's playing the front speaker, and here's playing the rear speaker...then I fade it to front and the main source feels like it's coming from the front.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EBP_SI &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">so now you're trying to say that a front stage only system isnt loud enough?</TD></TR></TABLE>

That's what I was saying all the time. What I mean is that it can be as loud to certain volume level (2 speakers at max will never be as loud as 4 speakers at max), but the sound sounds...kind of 1 dimensional and less pleasant.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EBP_SI &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">well in that case i'd lump you into the 95% all i'll ask you is this. have you ever heard a stereo that truely images well. if so, what was it?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Home stereo? I'm not really into it, so I don't know.

GSteg

fronts&gt; rears+ fronts

no one is going to run only a pair of mids to play all freq. that would be useless as no driver is made to handle the whole freq. spectrum.

fronts alone not loud enough?


rcurley, tell him how loud 25w on horns are. lol you'll probably need like 800w total on 4 speakers to even be considered close to 25w on a well made horn. lol.


if you take out the rears and it doesn't sound full, you are having probems with sound stage and imaging. simple as that. I'm going to assume that you have never been in a SQ car at events such as the IASCA (and i'm talking about finalist, not mo joe who just entered for fun).


only time it'll sound less full is if you do not have rears and are only running coaxials for fronts (or components, but not well imaged)

good news and bad new.

bad news is that not everyone can setup the way it's suppose to be for sound quality purposes.


good news is that i finished installing my horns. hahah