DirtyDA9

^^ having no torque is not fun to drive, don't kid yourself.

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

No torque is a relative term. Depends what u switching from.
I had fun driving my b16 del sol yes the difference in torque is noticeable compared to ls motor but i also had a single cam d15b and compared to that b16 rocks.

nealnanoHX

Yeah its the TQ that it comes down to. Drive B16 with 180WHP and drive a B18 with 180WHP. The B18 will pull way harder down low and smoke the B16. B16's are great for CRX's and EF hatches or to sleeve and boost but other than that they take a back seat in my book. The short stroke really kills a lot of power potential in the B16.

Xanthias

iTrader: (1)

Sorry to bring back a thread from the past but misinformation is a bad thing for people reading random threads... Horsepower is what matters not torque. One car is fast and one car is quick but those are two different things. More torque means the engine makes max power at a lower RPM. You're B16 makes 180 whp over 8000 RPM and the B18 makes 180 whp in the 7 thousands. This race is more of a matter of which car is more optimally geared but if they both have the same gearing they its more of a driver battle than anything else. The B18 will run out of breath but the B16 will have more revolutions to go which means they will be essentially the same! Also F1 motors are short stroke that does not mean they are limited in power. It just means the rod/stroke ratio is different and you can push way higher revs safely because of the short distance the piston have to travel up and down in the cylinder, thus older F1 engines being able to rev to 19,000 rpm.

F22Master

You get a B16, Ill get a B20, both 130whp. Same transmission. Same car. Wanna race?

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

i have both b16 and b20 both with a gsr tranny one is in a del sol another in full size 4 door gsr

and i enjoy driving both
because b16 has power up top and b20 has very nice torque but no top end

or if i was a negative person i would say both suck
b20 has no top end and not enough rpms
b16 has no torque

but to be fair

b20 is out of its peak torque range when shifting at redline
b16 is better power in the shift range when shifting at b16 redline

Xanthias

iTrader: (1)

Yes F22 maste I'll race you anyday with that set up just to prove that it will be the same. My b16a will still be screaming while your deep into the red line where your torque will plunge. Torque doesn't win straight line races horsepower does. On certain tracks where a car needs power more quickly a torquey car can accelerate out of corners faster and potentially be a better choice choice for a particular track. Remember the butt dyno is not an indicator of power it just proves that a higher torque car gets to its peak horsepower faster but mathematically will run out of breath faster.

F22Master

No, I will not be redlining, I will be shifting. I know where the torque drops off, so I just shift, and drop it right back into the meat of the torque curve. This isnot theoretical either, i have seen this race, and the B20 winsevery time.

You are also forgetting that hp is just a calculation. You can't have hp without tq.

93egSLEEPER

LOL I love bench racing

Xanthias

iTrader: (1)

There must of been a difference in gearing or something or they weren't equal because thats not how it works period. If you shift before you hit max horsepower you're driving wrong and the b16a guy racing you is probably an even worse driver lol. Fact is fact and these calculations exist. There are also many variables in bench racing likes even rim size so you can argue forever if you wish you will still be wrong. If you want to learn something read this:
http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine...and_torque.htm
And for you other torque heads out there that think torque is all that matters google search equal horsepower one car has more torque and read and learn. I speak facts not some hear-say bullshit. In a straight line horsepower wins. On a curvy track torque wins because of better acceleration. Depends on race as I stated earlier.

F22Master

Both had B16 trans, both were eg hatches, both on 15" rims, and it also happened when they switched drivers.

You are missing many things.

Look up k20a2 vs k24a2 dyno graphs. Both make around the same peak hp. The k24 has a 10x better power curve.

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

Not tq or whp as peak numbers but the curve where between your shift points wherever you prefer to shift

F22Master

Torque (B20) VS HP (B18C1)


"Alex’s B20b vs. my b18c1 gsr
This is back during 2009 MAP dyno day in the summer.
GSR with skunk2 IM, gsr tb, hondata gasket, stock header, 60mm rsr full exhast. Back when we swapped in the BONE STOCK B20B (no header) 6500rpm redline, Alex's DA B20 2550lbs still killed my EF Si GSR 2300lbs in any racing conditon up to about 80-85mph in 4th. I know this new motor would certainly kill most GSR swaped civic up to 100mph."

Let me emphasize the key points here: the BONE STOCK B20B ... 6500rpm redline ... killed my EF GSR

The dyno graph below is of the modified B20. Just imagine how much less power the stock B20 was making...


Red line: modified B20
Black line: I/E GSR


Source: http://www.team-integra.net/forum/12...get-build.html

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

gsr tranny shifting at 6500 you will be shifting right in the powerband of b20 from 4000 to 6200

gsr tranny shifting at 8500 throws you out of vtec range for 2nd gear shift and way out of b16 power band on either end of the curve

b16 is only good with 16 tranny for a good reason.

Xanthias

iTrader: (1)

I guess what it comes down to is average horsepower. The b20 must make a lot more average horsepower while the b16 peaks at the same amount. I guess this is where the b20 has a much better power curve.

JoeBlue

No it comes down to who is making more torque. Torque is the measurement of the actual transfer of energy from the fuel to mechanical motion. The more of that energy you can measure being transferred the more weight you are actually able to move. The more weight you can move the faster you will accelerate.

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

both are measures
people claiming that one is more important than other only understand one part of it and think its more important than other.

torque and power are both measures of engine output otherwise there wont be a need for HP measurement if torque was end all power measurement


heres 2 reasons why people assume one is better than other

1 old scool and domestic people use torque because that's what shows better engine output. with majority of American cars barely squeezing past 5500rpm where tq crosses HP curve

2 imports where we don't have **** for torque before 5500rpm use whp to show engine output because torque doesn't really show much difference at 8500 rpm

its just a fn measuring unit stop arguing about this **** already

lets argue which measuring unit is better metric(used in the rest of the world) or so called "standard" which is only used in US yet called standard

93egSLEEPER

It's called standard because it was the first standard spec of measurement across the board. You wanna confuse the **** out of people try making metric "standard" and standard...ummm I'll call it murican...which is better anyways.

JoeBlue

One is a measurement, the other is a calculation. People were using HP long before Hondas were being spun up to 9K RPM.

Realistically HP is used to give engineers an idea about where the engine is making power so they know what weight class of a chassis the engine would be suitable in. It's basically a mathematical abstraction of torque.

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

im sure it was invented long before that but you don't see domestic people using it a lot they refer to tq numbers a lot more often than hp that's what I meant
either way both are measures of engine output... don't know why this keeps getting brought up in every other thread...

JoeBlue

Hate to tell you, most of the really smart people on here are also domestic guys.

It was brought up because of the thread itself was the OP asking about it. I was not part of the other threads concerning this, so I can't say anything about those ones.

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

the argument is usually same. one is better than other and it starts again lol

93egSLEEPER

Because we know there's no replacement for displacement in the NA world

JoeBlue

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

well... not exactly true
take a b18b1 and jdm b18c jdm itr which has less displacement