2006 si lsd in type s tranny
11-03-2005, 06:05 PM
#1
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2006 si lsd in type s tranny
I am sure this post is to soon, as the 06 si has yet to be released.....
just pondering wether or not i will be able to use my connection at the honda dealership to buy an 06 si lsd and install it in our 05 type s........
any thoughts?
i am guessing the trannies are similar if not the same......
just pondering wether or not i will be able to use my connection at the honda dealership to buy an 06 si lsd and install it in our 05 type s........
any thoughts?
i am guessing the trannies are similar if not the same......
11-03-2005, 06:08 PM
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Re: 2006 si lsd in type s tranny (cmdr430)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by cmdr430 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I am sure this post is to soon, as the 06 si has yet to be released.....
just pondering wether or not i will be able to use my connection at the honda dealership to buy an 06 si lsd and install it in our 05 type s........
any thoughts?
i am guessing the trannies are similar if not the same...... </TD></TR></TABLE>
Yup. Any K20 LSD can fit into any K20 tranny. Case in point: there are people with boosted EPs that have put the K20A LSD into their K20A3 5-speeds. Bolts right in.
just pondering wether or not i will be able to use my connection at the honda dealership to buy an 06 si lsd and install it in our 05 type s........
any thoughts?
i am guessing the trannies are similar if not the same......
</TD></TR></TABLE>Yup. Any K20 LSD can fit into any K20 tranny. Case in point: there are people with boosted EPs that have put the K20A LSD into their K20A3 5-speeds. Bolts right in.
11-03-2005, 08:05 PM
#4
Re: (RsxVengeance)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RsxVengeance »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">unless you get it cheap, it's always better to get an aftermarket one</TD></TR></TABLE>
I thought most of the OEM LSD's could be had for under $500? So wouldnt that be cheeper than most aftermarket ones all of the time? Im not sure cuz the only one I know of is the Quaife which is about $1000 I think. BUT its lifetime warrenty is awsome.
There are prob more I dont know about that could be cheeper.
I thought most of the OEM LSD's could be had for under $500? So wouldnt that be cheeper than most aftermarket ones all of the time? Im not sure cuz the only one I know of is the Quaife which is about $1000 I think. BUT its lifetime warrenty is awsome.
There are prob more I dont know about that could be cheeper.
11-04-2005, 06:03 PM
#5
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Re: 2006 si lsd in type s tranny (cmdr430)
thanks for the input.......
hopefully, i can find out the cost in Dec. when the car is released......
should make a huge improvement on the 05 type s
hopefully, i can find out the cost in Dec. when the car is released......
should make a huge improvement on the 05 type s
11-05-2005, 05:48 AM
#6
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Re: (RsxVengeance)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RsxVengeance »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">unless you get it cheap, it's always better to get an aftermarket one
</TD></TR></TABLE>
The stock K motor Honda Torsen LSD that will fit in his transmission can be had for just a couple hundred dollars if he keeps his eyes open. The OEM Honda unit is so hardy that I can't imagine why he'd want anything else as long as he is not drag racing.
I have had my OEM Honda Torsen LSD in my DC2 ITR track car and it has never give up the ghost. 95,000 miles now, and the car's virtually only a track car now, and the LSD shows no signs of wear.
Of the non-Honda LSD that are available, the only one I have complete confidence in is the Quaife, which is also a Torsen unit. Depending on the model, it might have the added advantage of working in off-throttle situations...but most of us really wouldn't have any use for that even on the track. It can, in fact, be a little scary to have your LSD work in an off throttle situation, and I believe that I'd actually prefer the Honda Torsen to the Quaife Torsen in most situations.
You can get a Quaife at deep discount, as low as $825, if you keep your eyes open.
Kaaz is a complete clutch type LSD and it works wonderfully, but it will not be cheap and you will also have to use their special oil in the transmission. Moreover, all clutch type LSD will have to be rebuilt at some point. In most applications, you can buy a Kaaz that works only on powered situations, or one that will also work in off throttle situations.
Many of us will be familiar with ATS LSD systems because of Yasu's DC2 ITR and very visible presence in racing and his support of Honda sports. His systems are clutch type, multi plate designs. I have never heard the first criticism of his LSD, but they are kind of expensive ($1000 at a discount) and will of course require special oil. He makes a carbon plate LSD and a metal plate LSD.
OPM LSD are kind of a hybrid design. I am not absolutely sure, but the ones I have seen opened look like they are standard Honda differentials but with OPM's special friction plates installed. There must be some kind of centrifugal/centripetal spring pack-operated devices in the blocks. Many racers swear by these units and like them very much. They do wear out, but it will take a couple of years of racing, generally.
Phantom Grip is kind of controversial. You basically are buying the friction plates and installing them in your own differential. It will work, but they seem to wear out a little too quickly. However, if you are mechanically inclined and don't mind opening up your own differential to install it, you can get away with a working LSD that will last you for a little while. I wouldn't race with it, but I'd consider tracking a car with one. The Honda OEM Torsen units are so cheap that it's almost less trouble to just buy one of the OEM gear units.
OBX is another possibility. The OBX appears to be an imitation of the Quaife all-gear units. They are an extraordinary buy, but you are basically buying a Quaife unit from a factory that's not licensed for it. When they work, they work very well; however, there have been a few reports of shoddy workmanship and early failures. I'd only buy an OBX from a well trusted retailer who would be able to and says he will act as your arbiter if something goes wrong. If you can deal with all that, though, they can be very good buys...probably about half the price of the Quaife.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
The stock K motor Honda Torsen LSD that will fit in his transmission can be had for just a couple hundred dollars if he keeps his eyes open. The OEM Honda unit is so hardy that I can't imagine why he'd want anything else as long as he is not drag racing.
I have had my OEM Honda Torsen LSD in my DC2 ITR track car and it has never give up the ghost. 95,000 miles now, and the car's virtually only a track car now, and the LSD shows no signs of wear.
Of the non-Honda LSD that are available, the only one I have complete confidence in is the Quaife, which is also a Torsen unit. Depending on the model, it might have the added advantage of working in off-throttle situations...but most of us really wouldn't have any use for that even on the track. It can, in fact, be a little scary to have your LSD work in an off throttle situation, and I believe that I'd actually prefer the Honda Torsen to the Quaife Torsen in most situations.
You can get a Quaife at deep discount, as low as $825, if you keep your eyes open.
Kaaz is a complete clutch type LSD and it works wonderfully, but it will not be cheap and you will also have to use their special oil in the transmission. Moreover, all clutch type LSD will have to be rebuilt at some point. In most applications, you can buy a Kaaz that works only on powered situations, or one that will also work in off throttle situations.
Many of us will be familiar with ATS LSD systems because of Yasu's DC2 ITR and very visible presence in racing and his support of Honda sports. His systems are clutch type, multi plate designs. I have never heard the first criticism of his LSD, but they are kind of expensive ($1000 at a discount) and will of course require special oil. He makes a carbon plate LSD and a metal plate LSD.
OPM LSD are kind of a hybrid design. I am not absolutely sure, but the ones I have seen opened look like they are standard Honda differentials but with OPM's special friction plates installed. There must be some kind of centrifugal/centripetal spring pack-operated devices in the blocks. Many racers swear by these units and like them very much. They do wear out, but it will take a couple of years of racing, generally.
Phantom Grip is kind of controversial. You basically are buying the friction plates and installing them in your own differential. It will work, but they seem to wear out a little too quickly. However, if you are mechanically inclined and don't mind opening up your own differential to install it, you can get away with a working LSD that will last you for a little while. I wouldn't race with it, but I'd consider tracking a car with one. The Honda OEM Torsen units are so cheap that it's almost less trouble to just buy one of the OEM gear units.
OBX is another possibility. The OBX appears to be an imitation of the Quaife all-gear units. They are an extraordinary buy, but you are basically buying a Quaife unit from a factory that's not licensed for it. When they work, they work very well; however, there have been a few reports of shoddy workmanship and early failures. I'd only buy an OBX from a well trusted retailer who would be able to and says he will act as your arbiter if something goes wrong. If you can deal with all that, though, they can be very good buys...probably about half the price of the Quaife.
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11-06-2005, 01:39 PM
#8
Re: (SiR Phil)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SiR Phil »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">^^^^^ GREAT info! 
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Yes I would Like to Read this Later.
</TD></TR></TABLE>Yes I would Like to Read this Later.
11-06-2005, 06:50 PM
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Re: (George Knighton)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by George Knighton »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> It can, in fact, be a little scary to have your LSD work in an off throttle situation,...</TD></TR></TABLE>
So -- what happens?
Until recently, I didn't even know that LSD's work in any mode except acceleration.
So -- what happens?
Until recently, I didn't even know that LSD's work in any mode except acceleration.
11-08-2005, 09:47 AM
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Re: (BarracksSi)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BarracksSi »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
So -- what happens?
Until recently, I didn't even know that LSD's work in any mode except acceleration.</TD></TR></TABLE>
2 way LSDs can work under braking too! but thats not the way the OEM Honda LSDs work. oh well.
So -- what happens?
Until recently, I didn't even know that LSD's work in any mode except acceleration.</TD></TR></TABLE>
2 way LSDs can work under braking too! but thats not the way the OEM Honda LSDs work. oh well.
11-08-2005, 10:55 AM
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I understand that it works under braking -- but what does that have to do with the handling & balance of the car? How is it different from having no limited-slip, or a 1.5-way LSD, etc?
11-09-2005, 04:50 AM
#13
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Re: (BarracksSi)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BarracksSi »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I understand that it works under braking -- but what does that have to do with the handling & balance of the car? </TD></TR></TABLE>
The only car I have driven with an LSD that worked in off throttle situations was an EP3 CTR outfitted for N series, a car that the owner was thinking of modifying to enter in the East Coast Honda Challenge series in 2006.
My impression of the difference is that in some off throttle situations the car could react quite a bit more quickly than the same car equipped with an OEM Honda Torsen unit that does not work in off throttle situations.
My impression is that I simply was not a good enough driver to use that capability, and it was a bit of a surprise to me while trail braking in some corners. I never spun out or anything, but my impression was that I had some learning to do.
It's possible that I was distracted by learning to drive an EP3 with about 80 HP more than I was used to (about the same as my DC2 ITR but with different dynamics), and by having to learn again how to shift with my left hand. I also did not fit in the car very well, so that might have also accentuated my impression that I wasn't a good enough driver for the car.
I'll see if I can get a racer to visit the thread to explain better.
The only car I have driven with an LSD that worked in off throttle situations was an EP3 CTR outfitted for N series, a car that the owner was thinking of modifying to enter in the East Coast Honda Challenge series in 2006.
My impression of the difference is that in some off throttle situations the car could react quite a bit more quickly than the same car equipped with an OEM Honda Torsen unit that does not work in off throttle situations.
My impression is that I simply was not a good enough driver to use that capability, and it was a bit of a surprise to me while trail braking in some corners. I never spun out or anything, but my impression was that I had some learning to do.
It's possible that I was distracted by learning to drive an EP3 with about 80 HP more than I was used to (about the same as my DC2 ITR but with different dynamics), and by having to learn again how to shift with my left hand. I also did not fit in the car very well, so that might have also accentuated my impression that I wasn't a good enough driver for the car.
I'll see if I can get a racer to visit the thread to explain better.
11-09-2005, 06:11 AM
#14
I said I don't want a title!
Re: (George Knighton)
Go here for LSD info:
http://www.kaazusa.com/introdu...D.htm
Helical diffs are only 1-way by the nature of their construction. 1.5 and 2-way diffs are all clutch-types.
When people say the OEM Honda LSD sucks, they are comparing it to a Quaife or something like an ATS. For daily driving, the oem LSD is fine and works perfectly. But for real racing conditions, the oem LSD can certainly be improved upon.
The OBX and the Phantom Grip are complete pieces of ****. The OPM I would get only if a factory LSD was not made for my car and if I were on a budget.
http://www.kaazusa.com/introdu...D.htm
Helical diffs are only 1-way by the nature of their construction. 1.5 and 2-way diffs are all clutch-types.
When people say the OEM Honda LSD sucks, they are comparing it to a Quaife or something like an ATS. For daily driving, the oem LSD is fine and works perfectly. But for real racing conditions, the oem LSD can certainly be improved upon.
The OBX and the Phantom Grip are complete pieces of ****. The OPM I would get only if a factory LSD was not made for my car and if I were on a budget.
11-09-2005, 06:25 AM
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Re: (Todd00)
Although the information supplied by Kaaz is completely correct, it's a little unfairly derisive of Quaife and Honda LSD, hinting that those LSD don't do a lot of good.
11-09-2005, 09:14 AM
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excellent.
the OPM LSD is really better for racing. by racing, i mean roadracing. clutch type LSDs are better for drag racing in general. the main weakness to a torsen is if you happen to lift one of the drive wheels. the system gets confused momentarily and sends the power to the one in the air.
the OPM LSD is really better for racing. by racing, i mean roadracing. clutch type LSDs are better for drag racing in general. the main weakness to a torsen is if you happen to lift one of the drive wheels. the system gets confused momentarily and sends the power to the one in the air.
11-09-2005, 09:53 AM
#17
I said I don't want a title!
Re: (kung fu grip)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by kung fu grip »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">excellent.
the OPM LSD is really better for racing. by racing, i mean roadracing. clutch type LSDs are better for drag racing in general. the main weakness to a torsen is if you happen to lift one of the drive wheels. the system gets confused momentarily and sends the power to the one in the air.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I would argue that the clutch-types are better for roadracing/autox in higher HP FWD cars than the OPM given the nature and build of the diffs. The OPM unit seems to work ok in ITA/B/C cars that don't make a ton of HP.
For drag racing the clutch-types would work better I suppose.
Yes, the helical diffs get confused when one wheel is in the air. I've also found them to briefly spin the inside tire on tight corners before power is 'applied' to both wheels.
the OPM LSD is really better for racing. by racing, i mean roadracing. clutch type LSDs are better for drag racing in general. the main weakness to a torsen is if you happen to lift one of the drive wheels. the system gets confused momentarily and sends the power to the one in the air.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I would argue that the clutch-types are better for roadracing/autox in higher HP FWD cars than the OPM given the nature and build of the diffs. The OPM unit seems to work ok in ITA/B/C cars that don't make a ton of HP.
For drag racing the clutch-types would work better I suppose.
Yes, the helical diffs get confused when one wheel is in the air. I've also found them to briefly spin the inside tire on tight corners before power is 'applied' to both wheels.
11-09-2005, 10:01 AM
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i didn't mean to infer that the OPM unit is better than a helical unit. the intent was to preface that before compring the unit for drag racing. i had an OPM on my ITA car it helped me immensely. granted, there was no other option for that car without using a quaife and custom axles. i don't think the OPM would last long in a drag racing environment. sorry for the confusion.
on the miata, i had used an RX-7 clutch type lsd when i had added a turbo. i moved to the torsen unit from later models and the handling improved. the clutch lsds don't tend to "hook" as quickly in corners, but as stated above, the clutch types hook better in straight-line acceleration.
on the miata, i had used an RX-7 clutch type lsd when i had added a turbo. i moved to the torsen unit from later models and the handling improved. the clutch lsds don't tend to "hook" as quickly in corners, but as stated above, the clutch types hook better in straight-line acceleration.
11-09-2005, 10:03 AM
#19
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Re: (George Knighton)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by George Knighton »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I'll see if I can get a racer to visit the thread to explain better.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Well, he visited but said it looked like we pretty much knew what we were talking about.
I'll see if I can get a racer to visit the thread to explain better.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Well, he visited but said it looked like we pretty much knew what we were talking about.
11-09-2005, 10:31 AM
#20
I said I don't want a title!
Re: (kung fu grip)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by kung fu grip »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
on the miata, i had used an RX-7 clutch type lsd when i had added a turbo. i moved to the torsen unit from later models and the handling improved. the clutch lsds don't tend to "hook" as quickly in corners, but as stated above, the clutch types hook better in straight-line acceleration.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Good clutch units blow helical units out-of-the-water IMO when it comes to 'hooking' in the corners. I've driven both and there is no comparison I feel.
Clutch units wear out over time, which is probably what you experienced in terms of the oem unit you used (which given OEM specs, was probably not very aggressive anyways).
on the miata, i had used an RX-7 clutch type lsd when i had added a turbo. i moved to the torsen unit from later models and the handling improved. the clutch lsds don't tend to "hook" as quickly in corners, but as stated above, the clutch types hook better in straight-line acceleration.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Good clutch units blow helical units out-of-the-water IMO when it comes to 'hooking' in the corners. I've driven both and there is no comparison I feel.
Clutch units wear out over time, which is probably what you experienced in terms of the oem unit you used (which given OEM specs, was probably not very aggressive anyways).
11-09-2005, 11:37 AM
#22
I said I don't want a title!
Re: (kung fu grip)
Drive a quaife (best helical), then an ATS metal 20 disk (best 1.5way clutch) back-to-back and let me know what conclusion you come to.
I have and I know what I like better.
I have and I know what I like better.
11-09-2005, 07:58 PM
#23
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i envy your experience. the only quaife i have driven was in a gp5 FWD prorally car at an autcross and rallycross.
the closest to an ats would be a 2 way kaaz in a friend's miata.
rwd/fwd...apples and oranges.
the closest to an ats would be a 2 way kaaz in a friend's miata.
rwd/fwd...apples and oranges.
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