This morning while I was driving to work on the highway, around 80mph, the check engine light in my car starting blinking... and kept on blinking. This is a 98 GSR which I just use as a daily driver, no racing or high speed runs. I haven't made any changes on it recently. I pulled over to try to figure out what was going on, and the car seemed fine. I turned it off, then started it again, and I got a _solid_ CEL. So, I pulled the code, and it's 45 - system too rich or too lean. I've seen that one before, it comes up every couple of months. I had it checked out at the shop I usually go to, and they said it was the idle air control valve, and I didn't have to replace it right away if I didn't want to. It has never given me any problems with rough idle.

So, I decided to keep going to work, only about 5 minutes away, and research this more when I got there. I pulled back onto the highway, and a minute later the light started blinking again, continuously. I kept going to work but I kept the speed down to 60 - everything still seemed fine. When I got off the highway and was in a lower gear, there seemed to be a little bit of shaking or vibration, maybe like the clutch was slipping, but idle seemed steady. In the parking lot at work the idle became rough, dropping down to a near stall, then up to 1000 rpm, back and forth a few times before I shut it off again.

My guess is that the IACV is definitely failed now and needs to be replaced. However the continuously flashing CEL seems weird, and so does the vibration in third gear. The vibration was only for a very short distance though, so it might have been the road or something in my head - I get paranoid about car problems

Anyway, has anyone else seen a CEL that blinks and doesn't stop? And what can I check before I go home to make sure that the car will at least make it back to my place? It's a 30 or 45 minute ride on the highway.

 

When the CEL blinks continuously, it means that your engine is misfiring bad enough that it will damage the cat. That's the point when it's recommended you don't drive it until it is fixed (that's what we tell the customer).

If you would hook it up to an OBD 2 scan tool or take it to Acura so they can hook up the HDS, I'm sure you'de be getting one or a combination of P0301, P0302, P0303, P0304 codes. Those are all misfire codes.

If you're just getting a solid CEL with any of the misfire codes, you can drive it, if you want. I still wouldn't, but you could. But again, when it's flashing, that means the misfiring is severe enough to damage the cat (the catalysts inside).

You pulled the 45, rich/lean code, but jumping the connector I assume. This makes sense as to a misfire code. Plus you wrote at the end about shaking and vibration, and poor idle.

Found out which cylinder(s) are misfiring, and start troubleshooting. I've done quite a few of these at work at Acura, hopefully it's something small (plug, injector, etc). Good luck

-- Kevin

 

Misfiring badly? Wonderful. Any suggestions for how to troubleshoot? I don't even know where to start.

 

I'll give you cliff notes off the top of my head.

First you'll want to find out which cylinder(s) are misfiring. Let's say it's just #3. Since we know that's the bad cylinder, switch #3's plug with a plug from another cylinder, say #1, that we know is good. If the misfire occurs now occurs on #1, instead of #3, then it's a faulty spark plug.

If it still misfires on #3, next I would have checked individual coils. But since our tegs obviously don't have that, we'll skip that. I should have said above that you'll want to check the wire and boot for the problem cylinder. Make sure it's not shorted, opened, damaged, etc. Also check for carbon tracking/arcing on the boot (looks like little white/tanish lines, almost like lightning).

Take off your cap and check the condition of the rotor, cap, etc. There are tests you can run to check coil resistance, etc, but I forget those specs off the top of my head.

Also make sure the injector on the trouble cylinder is working. The easy way is take a (longer) screwdriver, and put one end to the injector, and one end to your ear. Listen and compare each injector. They should be making their normal clicking sound. You can also try switching an injector from the bad cylinder with one from a good cylinder.

If you've got this far and haven't found a problem yet, time to run a compression test. Check the compression of each cylinder and compare (remove all spark plugs first and keep your throttle completely open when cranking). If you have low compression in a cylinder, add a few drops of oil. If compression goes up, it's probably rings related. If it doesn't change, it's probably upper end (head/gasket) area.

Again everything is kinda just summarized, there's a lot more that could be done. Good luck

-- Kevin

Forgot to say too I just ran through a whole thorough test of this on an 04 RSX S. Kid overrevved it, as we found out with the HDS. After running though all the tests, got to the compression test part, found 190, 190, 115, 195. Turns out one of the valves wasn't completely closing. So guess who had to put a new head on an 04 RSX S. Me...yah that was a fun one, let me tell you. B-series are so much easier to work on...

Hopefully your problem is something simple like spark plug(s), wires, etc. If you're having misfires on all cylinders, you'll have to look into fuel issues, distributor, etc. Or maybe all your plugs are just really shitted up!

 

A friend is suggesting that it could be bad gas. I last filled the tank 2 days ago, and I'm down about 1/4 tank. Also why wouldn't I see the specific misfire codes from the ECU? 71-74?

 

In regards to the gas, I don't know. Did you fill up somewhere different? Did you get a lower grade then your GSR needs? I guess you can go ahead and run it down. I don't really have a test for gas, other then pullin the fuel pump out and looking in the tank for water.

As for not showing 71-74, I don't know. I take for granted using the HDS, which tells you just about anything you need to know when it comes to CELs (freeze frame data, permanent/history codes, etc). So the old jumper trick, doesn't tell you as much. I'm not playing down on it though! It's a great thing because of course not everyone has an HDS!

Hopefully somemore poeple on here will have some input for you. Without actually looking at the book at work for a teg, I don't know that the troubleshooting procedure is for a code 45. I just gave you all the info about misfires because that's what a flashing CEL means.

BTW, are you sure there weren't any other codes other then 45?

-- Kevin

 

I didn't fill up anywhere different or use anything other than trusty Mobil 93. I go to the same gas station every time.

This just sucks because I'm at work, I don't have any tools here, and I need to get home quick at the end of my shift to catch a plane. Really bad time to have to be screwing with my car alone when I don't really know what I'm doing.

 

Oh, and I'm not sure if there were any other codes. My understanding is that the jumper trick will show you the last couple of codes, and I think I only got one. I'll check it again before I leave.

 

When you check codes, it will display all of them, starting with the lowest one, and rising. Then it will repeat then. I am curious to see if you do indeed have more then just the 45.

I'm sorry I can't help you more though. I didn't know what tools/knowledge you had, but just assumed you could do the needed testing.

Hopefully you can manage and get your plane in time.

-- Kevin

 

Yeah, if I have to I can leave the car here and get someone to pick me up. I really appreciate your insight, no one else has had anything useful to tell me, and I had a bad feeling that a blinking CEL was fairly serious. Hopefully I'll be able to figure out what's goin on before I go home.

 

What are the risks if I try to drive the car at this point? As I said I need to make a 30 minute drive tonight if possible, I'd really rather not leave the car at work if I can avoid it. Any suggestions for making that decision?

 

Hey I don't know if you'll get this before you leave work, but ultimately it's up to you if you want to drive it. I mean lets say that it really is just something "simple" like a bad plug. You start running really rich, which of course means there's a lot more unburnt fuel.

Unburnt (raw) fuel is bad for the catalysts in the cat. So you drive the 1/2 hour you need to while slowly damaging your cat. Will it actually destroy your cat? Highly doubtful. We've had customers come in saying that "the little yellow light on the dash has been blinking for a few days now" and they haven't had any cat problems.

But again, we are assuming you don't have some major problem that's causing a misfire on say, all four cylinders. Which would of course dump a lot more fuel to the cat.

So I guess it's your choice. I don't want to yes, or no, to driving, because I don't want to be held responsible...but, IMO, I would say go for it, since it's a 1/2 hour. Be nice to the car though

-- Kevin

 

Yeah, I just checked it out again. At idle the engine shakes a lot and the CEL keeps blinking. Exhaust smells of gas. I pulled the codes again and I'm getting 45, 72, and 74. So random misfire on two cylinders - not good. My friend is picking me up so I can make my flight, and I'll have the car towed on Monday.

 

The car is getting towed today, hopefully later I'll know more about what happened. I looked at the maintenance records for the car that I got from the previous owner, who babied it quite a bit (he's an acquaintance that I knew prior to buying it). Plugs are Bosch Platinums, changed at 45k. Wires are some kind of performance ones, changed at 75k. Rotor and cap were changed at 88k. The car has about 105k on it now.

So I'm getting random misfires on 2 and 4. All the wires look OK going into the rotor, but I didn't have any tools to remove the plug cover and check there. When you said that the Integras don't have individual coils, am I right in thinking that there are just two coils, one for 1 and 3, and one for 2 and 4? Maybe I have a shot coil? When I talked to the mechanic at the shop he said the Bosch plugs might be the problem - NGK are usually the way to go in the Hondas.

I really hope I didn't burn out my cat. :-/

 

Integra distributors just have one coil. It's the "big thing" on top, in the distributor. Can't miss it. But if they go bad, usually the result is no spark (on all four cylinders). We just had a 94 teg in the other day with that exact problem; a bad coil.

Since you are getting spark, it's pretty safe to rule out the coil, igniter, etc. Actually, did we ever actually figure out if you are getting spark? Now that I think about it, I don't think we did...guess that's def something to check (each plug/wire).

It is true that Honda's love NGK...you'de be surprised how plugs other then that can make it run a lot worse.

Where are you having the car looked at? If it gets hooked up to an actual HDS/generic OBD 2 reader, you'll be able to find out more. You might have random misfire(s) on a cylinder(s), or some codes might be permanent, while others are history codes. That will make it easier for the tech to diagnos what exactly is wrong.

I really wouldn't worry about your cat, either. I'm not saying there's def no chance it's not affected, but I honestly think it's going to be fine.

Keep me posted bc I'm interested to know what the verdict is on the misfires.

Oh and one more thing. Certain year/model Integras (I forget which) are subject to an "emissions" related bulletin, in which the dealer replaces your plugs, wires, cap, and rotor, for free (free labor and free parts). I've done a few of these bulletins (recalls, if you will) at work. I just can't remember which years and models it affected. If I remember, I will check at work and see what I can dig up, and then get back to you.

Good luck

-- Kevin

 

So I called the shop this morning before I flew back home. They told me that I'm getting no compression in cyls 2 and 3. They have to pull the head to find out more about what's the problem is. Ugh. I told them to go ahead, we'll see what I find out, but I have a _bad_ feeling about this.

The shop said it could be anything, maybe a head gasket, burned valve, or something else. A friend suggested:

"sounds like the cam timing is off to me. have them check to be sure the belt didn't jump a tooth or two...

0 compression is probably the valves not closing when they should be...and opening when they should not be. hence the rich condition and lopy idle."

I'm not sure what to make of it, anyway. We'll see in a day or two I hope.

The shop that is working on it is a private mechanic that specializes in Hondas, they've taken good care of me in the past.

 

I remember this topic discussion on Team Integra.

Let me know what the shop discovers.

 

Yeah, I started that topic the same day I started this one ;-)

 

Quickly before I go to work,

I don't think the timing jumped, else the compression on every cylinder would be affected. If you have two cylinders side by side though with low/no compression, my first guess (and it is a guess since I haven't actually done any diagnosis on it) would be head gasket.

If it's just the head gasket, don't worry, that's not some big expensive repair. I mean ok it's not $50 either, but it's better then something like needing new rings, or a cracked sleeve, etc etc.

Keep me posted, as usual.

-- Kevin

 

Two words: head. gasket. Looks like it burned through between the 2 and 3 cylinders. No surprises in the block; pistons, rings, etc etc all look OK. So the head is going out to a machine shop today for them to pressure test it and make sure it's not cracked, and then mill it so it mates with the new gasket properly. Once it's back (hopefully Mondayish) I get new spark plugs, valves, seals, guides, etc. Keeping my fingers crossed for a crack-free head, and getting ready for a big kick in the wallet. The shop is saying it might be around $2k. Does that seem excessive?

 

Head gasket? Hmm, I was right.

Now though, how many miles are on this? And what year is it?

I'm curious as to why you are getting new valves, seals, guides, etc? Unless there is a problem with them, why replace them? I say this in the interest to save you some money. I think $2k sounds way to excessive.

The best shop around here, Reardons, charges def less then $150 to mill a head. I think the most any of me/my friends have ever paid was like $100. As for pressure testing, that can't hurt. Not something we normally do, but hey, for peace of mind, won't say it's a bad thing.

Labor wise, let's say the shop already spent four hours so far in diagnosing/removing the head (it def shouldn't be any more then that, I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt). It shouldn't take more then four hours to get that back in, adjust the valves, etc. At worst, let's say a total of ten hours labor.

Even at dealership rates (we're about $85/hr). That puts you at $850 labor, $50-$125 for a gasket (depending on who/where you get it), and let's just say another $100 in parts (coolant, gaskets, etc). Add to that the $100 for the mill job, and say $50 for the pressure test, and you're looking at roughly $1200?

But if this is an independent, labor could be at $60/hr. Then we're talking easy under $1k total.

All I'm trying to say is simply that unless something is actually wrong, there's no need to get all the new stuff upstairs. A mill and new headgasket are all you need. (Feel free to get a new valve cover gasket, etc). I'm not saying the shop is trying to take you for your money, but as far as we know, it's just the head gasket.

Hell, for $2k, you can buy some really nice engines off the H-T, eBay, etc...

Hope this helps, don't think I'm trying to be a dick about this. I just think it's too much stuff.

-- Kevin

 

OK, I spoke too soon. I guess I was a little confused when I called the shop, or they thought I knew more than I did. The head gasket was fine; what they were seeing was no compression in one cylinder and very low compression in another. When they pulled the head they found one definitely burned/chipped exhaust valve in the no compression cyl. They are assuming that a valve in the "very low compression" cyl is damaged too, though it wasn't visible. They noted that the interior of the motor had a fair amount of carbon buildup in it, and their theory is that a piece wedged itself in the valve and held it open, exposing it to exhaust blow-by on the power stroke.

So with one or two burned valves being replaced, as well as the head gasket, I'm still not clear on where we get the $2000 figure. That was just an estimate, maybe they were highballing me so I wouldn't be shocked later? I strongly doubt it. So, maybe they are planning to do a complete valve replacement? Is this excessive in light of what happened, or maybe just a preventative maintenance thing?

I'm going to call them again on Monday, when they expect to have the head back, and talk to them some more. If they're looking to get more than about $1200 for the work, I'm going to ask them to break it all down for me so I can figure out what they're charging me for. I don't think you're being a dick about it at all - your replies have been really useful to me, I don't feel any particular allegiance to this shop, so don't worry about it. Thanks for all your input :-)

--Owen

 

But the big question is, why did I burn a valve or two? What caused this carbon buildup, if indeed that's what caused this? The previous owner autocrossed the car, but also was pretty fanatical about taking care of it (confirmed by mutual friends).

I asked awhile back about a comment he made to me about his valve adjustment technique. He said, "As for the valve adjustment, I adjusted it to the tightest factory spec or even .001 tighter to get a little bit more cam duration, and I did it right when you got the car." Maybe the valves were being held slightly open? Seems like this tiny difference couldn't lead to a problem this big, but I don't really know what I'm talking about.

I had seen the occasional CEL 45 (system too rich or too lean) code, maybe for an hour or so every other month, since I got the car. The PO told me that he used to see this sometimes too. The shop told me it was the idle air control valve getting flakey, but I didn't need to replace it right away if the idle seemed OK to me, which it did.

I was seeing some oil loss when running Mobil 1 5w30. The PO ran 5w30 in the winter and 10w30 in the summer. Since switching to 10 I've seen some improvement in that, but basically I'm still getting blow-by. There's a fine mist of oil on the back bumper. Rings? Valve seals? Something else? I haven't been able to sort it out, but I wonder if that's a contributing factor here. Maybe while the motor is in pieces I should have them check this out...

 

Ah, so omehegan finally has a name lol. Nice to meet you Owen.

Ok so that's a lot of info in those two posts, I'll try and address everything.

Carbon buildup can be from a lot of things. It's almost impossible to avoid it. And it can cause stuff like this to happen. In fact, as another example from work, we had a guy bring his 99 3.2TL (3.2 litre V6) with a misfire code (though his was so bad that we getting misfire codes on four out of the five other cylinders). Anyway the point was that he too had a cracked valve. We assume the piece of the broken valve went out the exhaust and is probably stuck down further somewhere in the cat. His engine only had 88k miles on. Rare for a Honda with that low of mileage to have a problem like this. We don't know what actually caused it.

Now as for valve adjustment, Honda made those specs for a reason...and yes, I've heard of poeple adjusting theirs tighter then spec for the exact reason of milking all the power they can out of an engine. Something I wouldn't do, regardless of how power hungry I was. I think that was something the previous owner should have told you as soon as he sold the engine. It doesn't sound like you were as power hungry as he was, and adjusting them back to within spec (or in the middle of spec) could have helped.

And example is on a 04 RSX S engine, valve adjustment, if I remember off the top of my head correctly, was .008" - .010" intake and .009" - .010" exhaust (if any RSX guys read this, don't flame me if I'm wrong! I did a valve adjustment over a month ago on one and I said these might not be exact but the point was to give this guy an example). Anyway, as you can see, these measurement specs are pretty close in range (.001" to .002" range). You can also see how small the gap is to begin with. So now imagine going a little smaller. And whose to say that the valve that was the problem wasn't accidently adjusted even tighter because of a measuring error? All I'm saying is that I do think that a safe bet is valve adjustment had something to do with this. (My friend's old Civic dropped a valve on two different occasions because of valve adjustment issues. He thought he could do it on his own, but obviously that wasn't the case.)

And yes, since the head is off, go ahead and check each cylinder for wear and such. Make sure there aren't any grooves, cuts, etc in the sleeves, and clean the carbon off the piston tops and make sure they are ok. Can't hurt to check. At this point I can't make an educated guess as to what is causing you to burn oil. As you said, and know, it could be a lot of things. I guess starting with the areas in the head that could cause it would be good since it's being taken apart.

Now comes other options. If they do break it all down for you as to why it could cost $2k, you might want to look into other alternatives. For instance, if they are going to replace all the valves, etc, find out the price. Sadly, OEM can be expensive. And, depending on the price, it might actually be cheaper, or around the same price, to get performance valves. Or, check H-T, eBay, teamintegra, etc for a head.

For instance, this one stuck me as a great deal on eBay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...wItem

The guy has a feedback rating of 100%, and that's with over 2175 transactions! That's amazing. Point is you know this is all legit and will be exactly what is shown. Granted, it would have to be assembled, but the point is for that price, you're getting some nice, and NEW stuff!

So as I said, look into your options and see what works best for you. The above head was pricey, yes, but that's because of what you were getting. You could always buy an OEM, used head, for a lot less.Of course, you do run the chance of getting something defective, but again, look for feedback or vouches...

Best of luck

-- Kevin

 

Thanks for the additional information Kevin, again it's all very useful. That head and valve set is probably out of my price range, but I might consider getting a set of performance valves if it would be comparable or even lower in cost to OEM. On the other hand, performance valves seem like a weird place to start doing performance mods. The car is bone stock other than having an AEM cold air intake. Seems like the conventional wisdom is to start modding with things like intake and exhaust before you go messing with the valvetrain. Or does it not matter?