92whtgsr

Well just finished installing my koni yellows and H&R race springs one ? though

first off the instructions were terrible, but my set came with 2 rings that your suppose to place on the circlip but the instructions showed 4 was i suppose to get 4 or do u even have to use them. can i just put the 2 on and the other on the circlip do i need all 4 rings?

johnlear

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 92whtgsr &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">first off the instructions were terrible, but my set came with 2 rings that your suppose to place on the circlip but the instructions showed 4 was i suppose to get 4 or do u even have to use them. can i just put the 2 on and the other on the circlip do i need all 4 rings?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Ah Konis, great dampers, crap instructions!

On <U>each</U> damper there is one circlip only to hold the perch in position, but a number of grooves to which the circlip can be fitted, which gives a choice of ride height options.

Also, the instructions tell you that there are two full rotations in the adjustment, but in reality it's more like 1 and 3/4.

Note also that the adjustment is very non linear, i.e. half way rotation between full soft and full stiff isn't actually half way in actual stiffness. The adjustment gets more sensitive the closer you go toward full stiff, so half of total rotation is softer than you'd expect it to be. E.g. a quarter turn from full soft has a lot less affect on stiffness than a quarter turn from full stiff.

If you were to graph it out then the stiffness curve would be shallow near full soft rotation but rise steeply toward full stiffness rotation. If you want to make a big change from the softer end you need to rotate the adjuster quite a lot, but if you want a similarly sized change from nearer the stiffer end you need a much smaller adjuster rotation.




Modified by johnlear at 3:15 PM 2/17/2008

92whtgsr

ah lots of info thankyou still wondering if there should be 4 rings that go on top of the circlips mine only came with 2.

JOE BD-0

That darned little $0.20 clip failed (came off) on me during a race at Buttonwillow a few years back. Check the inside of your coil over sleeve for proper machining (a flat ring to seat on the clip), just in case, cause Koni sent me a bad one. I also keep some extra clips on hand. Good Luck.

johnlear

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 92whtgsr &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ah lots of info thankyou still wondering if there should be 4 rings that go on top of the circlips mine only came with 2.</TD></TR></TABLE>

As far as i know, unless they've changed it very recently which I don't seriously consider likely, there is one clip per damper. There should be one spring perch per damper. That's all there is on the damper body.

With each damper, at the top of the damper rod / shaft there should be one thick washer with a taper on the inner ID that fits on the taper on the shaft, and there should be one thin bush retaining washer that fits on the top under the nut.

You need to re-use the bump stop from your old damper (if it's OK, if not then source a new one), and the cylindrical stone shield that fits over the bump stop and on top of the thick washer. Re-use the rubber bushes (or replace depending on condition). Re-use the stock crush tube.

On the damper shaft you'll have a stack of parts starting with:
Plastic disc (with split, supplied by Koni)
Bump stop
Thick washer (with taper fitting)
Stone shield
Lower rubber bush
Crush tube (passes through both rubber bushes and upper spring perch)
Upper spring perch
Upper rubber bush
Thin retaining washer
Nut.

92whtgsr

there already installed on my car with the h&r race springs found a pic off of superstreet to show what i'm talking about guess it's a washer was i suppose to get 4

johnlear

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 92whtgsr &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">there already installed on my car with the h&r race springs found a pic off of superstreet to show what i'm talking about guess it's a washer was i suppose to get 4
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Hmm, That plated ring is unfamiliar to me. My Konis came with the yellow circlip and the spring perch, nothing else. With mine the perch rests directly on the circlip.

I'd imagine that with yours that ring must sit betwen the circlip and the perch, i.e. on top of the circlip and below the perch. I can't see how else it could be fitted, nor how there would be more than one per damper. The perch doesn't need to be located (i.e. 'locked' in place) above as well as below the clip, only below. Spring pre-load will prevent the perch comimg off the circlip at full droop, pushing the perch down against the clip.

If your springs don't have pre-load at full droop then you should get springs that do, or use only the higher ride height grooves on the damper if this does provide pre-load with your existing springs. You don't want the spring perch 'floating' at full droop.

CRX Lee

Many years ago the KONI instructions were written words in about about four languages but were insuffucient in many of the nearly 100 countries of the world that they were sold in. Additionally, the English instructions were written by someone for whom English was not their native language making a lot of the terminology seem strange or awkward to Englsh speakers. So KONI changed from worded instructions to pictograms to better help people who did not speak the few printed languages. The issue with pictograms is that if the reader is not on the same wavelength as the writer, they can still be problematic. We try to improve the instructions but the going can be slow and different cultures have different requirements for acceptable instructions. If you go to http://www.koni-na.com and look up your specific application, you will find a link to a page that more thoroughly explains the adjustment and sometimes the installation procedure.


This depends on the individual application but the vast majority of KONI shocks are 2 to 2 1/2 revolutions from min to max. Although a number of Honda valvings are about 1 3/4 turns min to max, that is about the smallest number of turns across the entire product range. It all depends on the stack height of the valving components selected for that application. The common racing valvings for those same Hondas are about 2 turns stop to stop.


This is not really correct. Although the KONI valving is made of a series of opening or closing orifices, flexing shims or preloading coil springs so it is not an exactly digitally linear change, the range and change from the minimum and maximum settings is generally pretty linear for the most part so being halfway through the adjustment range is going to be generally about halfway through the range of forces made. As a rule of thumb most KONI shocks are typically about twice as stiff at the maximum setting as they are from the minimum setting so being about a quarter, a half or three quarters of the way through the adjustment range will result in about a quarter, a half or three quarters of the range of forces. Since orifices amongst other things are used, there is some small amount of extra variance occurs just as an orifice be totally closed off. Unlike most adjustable shock companies, KONI does not use any needle valves which very much do have much bigger changes in damping force just as they are being choked off. This is why many shocks with say 32 clicks of adjustent might have nothing happen for the first 16 clicks, a quarter of the range changes in the next 8 clicks and the vast majority of changes in the final 8 clicks with the last one or two being great big steps. Needle valves also wear quicker and are more heat and oil viscosity sensative so they have greater tendency toward fade as the shock gets hotter.

CRX Lee

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by johnlear &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Hmm, That plated ring is unfamiliar to me. My Konis came with the yellow circlip and the spring perch, nothing else. With mine the perch rests directly on the circlip.
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There is one circlip per damper although the damper might have up to five different grooves depending on the model and application. Some spring perches require a circlip retaining ring and some do not, it all depends on the design and shape of the specific spring perch itself. The circlip system is extremely strong if there is a machined groove in the bottom side of the spring perch or retaining ring so as to capture and contain the circlip to keep it from spreading open when loaded. If you flip your KONI suppied spring perch upside down and look around the inside diameter where it goes around the shock body, you may or may not see that machined groove for capturing the spring perch. If the groove is present, then no retaining ring is needed. If there is no such retaining groove, then a retaining ring with such a groove is required. To confuse matters a bit more, over the years some of the spring perches may have been redesigned such that at one time a retaining ring may have been needed but a later design change incorporating a machined groove in the bottom of the perch may have been added negating the need for a retaining ring. So the real answer is to look at the bottom side of you KONI perch and see if there is a groove there or not.
Groove = no ring needed No groove=ring needed

If you as using a threaded coi-over sleeve perch system, that system must also fit properly and have a groove in the bottom side to perfectly capture the circlip. Do not put a grooveless coil-over sleeve on top of a KONI grooved spring perch and hope that it holds up. The sleeve must fit right and have its own groove. To my knowledge, only KONI and Ground Control make sleeves specifically grooved for KONI circlips. In 12 years of working for KONI, I have never seen or heard of a truly well fitted grooved coil-over sleeve system or spring perch ever fall down or fail but I have heard of plenty of ill fitted or improperly installed ones fall down. The system is very strong and allows adjustability that a welded perch does not allow but it must be used correctly or it is wrong and at risk of problems.

92whtgsr

I emailed koni and it looks like i was only suppose to get 2 rings for the fronts, the rear cups are different and have a groove so u don't need the extra rings for the rear.

johnlear

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CRX Lee &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> This is not really correct. Although the KONI valving is made of a series of opening or closing orifices, flexing shims or preloading coil springs so it is not an exactly digitally linear change, the range and change from the minimum and maximum settings is generally pretty linear for the most part so being halfway through the adjustment range is going to be generally about halfway through the range of forces made.

As a rule of thumb most KONI shocks are typically about twice as stiff at the maximum setting as they are from the minimum setting so being about a quarter, a half or three quarters of the way through the adjustment range will result in about a quarter, a half or three quarters of the range of forces.

Since orifices amongst other things are used, there is some small amount of extra variance occurs just as an orifice be totally closed off. Unlike most adjustable shock companies, KONI does not use any needle valves which very much do have much bigger changes in damping force just as they are being choked off.

This is why many shocks with say 32 clicks of adjustent might have nothing happen for the first 16 clicks, a quarter of the range changes in the next 8 clicks and the vast majority of changes in the final 8 clicks with the last one or two being great big steps. Needle valves also wear quicker and are more heat and oil viscosity sensative so they have greater tendency toward fade as the shock gets hotter. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Thank you for your response.

The non linearity of the Koni adjustment is something I read some while ago on a web site written by a (claimed) damper specialist primarily involved in auto-cross etc. His statements concerning this are claimed to be from a large number of dampers he's tested on his 'shock' dyno. I've played with my damper settings a fair bit, and I'd swear I can feel the non linear affect he talks about, but I'm willing to conceed that this may be a placebo affect because it's what I was expecting to find...

In defence of this claim of Koni non linearity of adjustment position, the auto-cross bloke making this claim also says that Konis are far better in this respect (and in every other respect) than any other adjustable dampers he's tested on his dyno, including those incorporated into 'coil-overs' such as Tein etc.

I love my Konis, but they aren't perfect. The main thing I don't like is that the stock Koni bump valving seems / feels significantly on the soft side (especially at the front), however this may be down to using the stock Honda springs (too soft). Perhaps increasing the spring rate would make the dampers feel less as if they were too soft in bump rate?

The other pain is the lack of an external adjuster on the rear dampers. On my CB7 the top of the adjuster isn't accesible due to the (pathetic) sheet metal re-inforcing braces directly behind the seat (which will I think be Konis reasoning to not fit an external adjuster on these particular dampers, and others), but it would be easy to temporarily remove these braces in order to adjust the dampers (if they did have external adjusters). This would certainly easier / faster to do than to remove the damper / spring from the car then take the spring off etc etc.

Even if the damper top were totally inaccessible, it would still be good to have the external adjuster to avoid having to remove the spring from the damper in order to make the adjustment, i.e. just pull the damper / spring assembly from the car, make the change then refit the damper / spring without having to further disassemble the spring / damper. Not fitting an external adjuster to some of their 'Sport' dampers is an unfortunate penny pinching from Koni, and inaccesabilty to the top of the damper in situ is merely rationalising this penny pinching, IMO.

johnlear

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CRX Lee &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Some spring perches require a circlip retaining ring and some do not, it all depends on the design and shape of the specific spring perch itself.

Groove = no ring needed No groove=ring needed </TD></TR></TABLE>

This is what I was thinking after I posted.