Track Day instructors... ups, downs and advice.
06-09-2005, 10:01 AM
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Track Day instructors... ups, downs and advice.
I'm going to be instructing for the first time at an upcoming track day. I have to admit, I'm pretty happy about not having to pay, but I'm especially excited about learnin' some newbies. 
Instructors; I'd like to hear about some of your frustrations and/or successes.
Even though I've been reading like a fiend and have found some pretty interesting commentary, I'm still quite open to advice... what do you concentrate on,... any pet peeves, etc.?
-dave, who likens his expenditures on racing to an Atlantic City regular, I've just hit for 900 bucks!... of course I spent 9,000 in the process.
8)
Instructors; I'd like to hear about some of your frustrations and/or successes.
Even though I've been reading like a fiend and have found some pretty interesting commentary, I'm still quite open to advice... what do you concentrate on,... any pet peeves, etc.?
-dave, who likens his expenditures on racing to an Atlantic City regular, I've just hit for 900 bucks!... of course I spent 9,000 in the process.
8)
06-09-2005, 10:05 AM
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Re: Track Day instructors... ups, downs and advice. (emwavey)
Make all of your hand signals to your students with your left hand!
I know that sounds stupid and obvious, but it is something that many instructors take WAY too long to figure out....the student isn't going to see you drawing the line to the apex way over on the other side of the car.
I know that sounds stupid and obvious, but it is something that many instructors take WAY too long to figure out....the student isn't going to see you drawing the line to the apex way over on the other side of the car.
06-09-2005, 10:18 AM
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Re: Track Day instructors... ups, downs and advice. (emwavey)
Don't go out if your not comfortable. Don't be afraid to reign in a student that begins to drive over his head.
I've had several students that just didn't get it and I had to re-assign to a different instructor with the hopes a different voice/technique would get through to them. Don't feel bad - by that point it gets to that, both of you will probably be frustrated and happy to change.
Be prepared to be exhausted. Two students, plus your own session, plus the occassional advanced session (if instructors run their own group) = lots of running around, lots of strain on neck, etc.
I've had several students that just didn't get it and I had to re-assign to a different instructor with the hopes a different voice/technique would get through to them. Don't feel bad - by that point it gets to that, both of you will probably be frustrated and happy to change.
Be prepared to be exhausted. Two students, plus your own session, plus the occassional advanced session (if instructors run their own group) = lots of running around, lots of strain on neck, etc.
06-09-2005, 10:25 AM
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Re: Track Day instructors... ups, downs and advice. (emwavey)
Get a communicator. You simply cannot communicate enough using just hand signals alone. There is more to instructing that telling them if they are early or late to an apex. And trying to yell over a loud exhaust is exhausting (har har) and ineffective
Dont overwhelm the student with info. Start with the basics (like memorizing the track layout!) and move on when the student demonstrates that skill consistently. Along the same lines, work on only 1 or 2 things at a time.
Keep your realtime feedback brief, you dont want to talk about a mistake 2 corners ago while the student is trying to drive the next corner. Bookmark the mistake in your head and the next lap, try to explain how to do it better before the corner.
Continuously drill the basics into the student. vision up, hand smoothness, foot smoothness. Dont just teach "the line"
Dont overwhelm the student with info. Start with the basics (like memorizing the track layout!) and move on when the student demonstrates that skill consistently. Along the same lines, work on only 1 or 2 things at a time.
Keep your realtime feedback brief, you dont want to talk about a mistake 2 corners ago while the student is trying to drive the next corner. Bookmark the mistake in your head and the next lap, try to explain how to do it better before the corner.
Continuously drill the basics into the student. vision up, hand smoothness, foot smoothness. Dont just teach "the line"
06-09-2005, 10:29 AM
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Re: Track Day instructors... ups, downs and advice. (elgorey)
For the newbies, fundamentals are the most important thing. In addition to what has already been mentioned, I tend to discourage too much shifting in early sessions. It can often distract from proper braking, turn-in points, etc. I also steer people away from attempting heel-toe downshifting (if they don't already know how) until other skills are refined.
06-09-2005, 10:32 AM
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Re: Track Day instructors... ups, downs and advice. (emwavey)
Drink double the water you drank as a student. You WILL get dehydrated.
Make your students wave to the cornerworkers.
Positive Reinforcement is key! This is fun, Dammit!
Make your students wave to the cornerworkers.
Positive Reinforcement is key! This is fun, Dammit!
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06-09-2005, 10:33 AM
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Re: Track Day instructors... ups, downs and advice. (elgorey)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by elgorey »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Continuously drill the basics into the student. vision up, hand smoothness, foot smoothness. Dont just teach "the line"</TD></TR></TABLE>
This one is SUPER important. Students often forget to look for flags, check mirrors, check gauges, check gear selection, and whatever else can be forgotten. They need to be gently reminded to do everything that a good driver does.
This one is SUPER important. Students often forget to look for flags, check mirrors, check gauges, check gear selection, and whatever else can be forgotten. They need to be gently reminded to do everything that a good driver does.
06-09-2005, 11:01 AM
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Re: Track Day instructors... ups, downs and advice. (RacerBowie)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RacerBowie »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Drink double the water you drank as a student. You WILL get dehydrated... This is fun, Dammit! </TD></TR></TABLE>
Thank you! I would have forgotten about this until I arrived at the track. I've been dehydrated, recently, at VIR and that night I felt like I'd been run over.
Communicator (check).
Flags/workers = wave... reminder (again one of those obvious things, but definitely appreciate the reminder and worth repeating)
The whole over-confident student thing is a bit concerning, but I will (saying this to help emphasize) have no problem asking, requesting, demanding a student to pit-in.
Here are a couple things I've been reading:
http://www.coastaldriving.org/instructors.htm
http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/epaul1.htm
Thanks guys, and feel free to keep 'em coming.
</TD></TR></TABLE>Thank you! I would have forgotten about this until I arrived at the track. I've been dehydrated, recently, at VIR and that night I felt like I'd been run over.
Communicator (check).
Flags/workers = wave... reminder (again one of those obvious things, but definitely appreciate the reminder and worth repeating)
The whole over-confident student thing is a bit concerning, but I will (saying this to help emphasize) have no problem asking, requesting, demanding a student to pit-in.
Here are a couple things I've been reading:
http://www.coastaldriving.org/instructors.htm
http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/epaul1.htm
Thanks guys, and feel free to keep 'em coming.
06-09-2005, 11:23 AM
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Re: Track Day instructors... ups, downs and advice. (emwavey)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by emwavey »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Communicator (check). </TD></TR></TABLE>
Pretty OT here but quick question where is a good place to buy these? My dad purchased one for when we open road race and we coundn't hear crap. Knowing my dad he found the cheapest one around
What brands are good and where can you get them and how much can I expect to pay for a good one?
</TD></TR></TABLE>Pretty OT here but quick question where is a good place to buy these? My dad purchased one for when we open road race and we coundn't hear crap. Knowing my dad he found the cheapest one around
What brands are good and where can you get them and how much can I expect to pay for a good one?
06-09-2005, 11:25 AM
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Re: Track Day instructors... ups, downs and advice. (emwavey)
1) I establish a "no pressure" atmosphere. Drive slow if they want, and don't worry about lap traffic until the passing zones. Give them "permission" to be completely comfortable and slow.
2) Get to know them. I like to find out what they do for a living, etc... so that I can assess what type of learning style they use, and adjust my instruction accordingly (i.e. Verbal, Visual, Kenesthic, Demonstrated, etc...)
3) I usually ask them, "What do you want to achieve today, so that at the end of the day you will feel like it was a day well spent?" Find out what their goal is for the day, and help them achieve that. You might be surprised by what they say.
4) What i have found to be effective is empahasizing VISUAL skills and looking waaaaayyyy ahead... when they do that, the line becomes that much more natural to understand. Bigger picture/peripheral vision.
5) Oh yeah, I also ask them:
Did you check you oil? Did you check your tire pressures? WHAT pressure are they at? (This almost always gets em) Did you torque your lugs? etc...
Visually inspect their cars, as you know, your life might* depend on its reliability.
-Dennis
2) Get to know them. I like to find out what they do for a living, etc... so that I can assess what type of learning style they use, and adjust my instruction accordingly (i.e. Verbal, Visual, Kenesthic, Demonstrated, etc...)
3) I usually ask them, "What do you want to achieve today, so that at the end of the day you will feel like it was a day well spent?" Find out what their goal is for the day, and help them achieve that. You might be surprised by what they say.
4) What i have found to be effective is empahasizing VISUAL skills and looking waaaaayyyy ahead... when they do that, the line becomes that much more natural to understand. Bigger picture/peripheral vision.
5) Oh yeah, I also ask them:
Did you check you oil? Did you check your tire pressures? WHAT pressure are they at? (This almost always gets em) Did you torque your lugs? etc...
Visually inspect their cars, as you know, your life might* depend on its reliability.
-Dennis
06-09-2005, 11:27 AM
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Re: Track Day instructors... ups, downs and advice. (emwavey)
i like to take 5 minutes with the student right after driving to go over key points during the session while its still fresh on thier mind. even some chalk is handy if you feel the need to drawn out some corners and show line. Then follow up 5-10 mintues before going back out on the next session.
Last couple events ive been to, ive seen rookie run sessions held up because Control had to call instructors to grid. thats not cool...
Last couple events ive been to, ive seen rookie run sessions held up because Control had to call instructors to grid. thats not cool...
06-09-2005, 11:42 AM
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Re: Track Day instructors... ups, downs and advice. (R you serious)
For a communicator, this one has worked great for me. Does what it's suppose to and it was pretty cheap.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...=WDVW
Like already mentioned, just try to focus on basics. Looking for flags, looking ahead, being smooth, and not overdriving the car. One thing I find lots of people do is overturn the wheel. Especially WRX drivers! That car just seems to make newbs overturn the wheel.
Getting in and out of the corner is really going to be the only thing you can focus on.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...=WDVW
Like already mentioned, just try to focus on basics. Looking for flags, looking ahead, being smooth, and not overdriving the car. One thing I find lots of people do is overturn the wheel. Especially WRX drivers!
That car just seems to make newbs overturn the wheel.Getting in and out of the corner is really going to be the only thing you can focus on.
06-09-2005, 11:50 AM
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Re: Track Day instructors... ups, downs and advice. (R you serious)
i'd say the most important thing that i've found i need to do for a student's session to be successful is to make them comfortable. this can be as simple as talking about their daily life, and making them realize you're a human too(not the bad guy taecher) or as complex as rummaging through the stuff they emptied out of the car to find their favorite CD. it sounds silly, but its definately the cornerstone to a successful student session.
also, if you can, take them out in your car. show them what you couldn't communicate to them. btu don't scare them!
i also like to take extra food, water, oil, etc in case there is a beginner student who didn't know.
also, if you can, take them out in your car. show them what you couldn't communicate to them. btu don't scare them!
i also like to take extra food, water, oil, etc in case there is a beginner student who didn't know.
06-09-2005, 12:12 PM
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Re: Track Day instructors... ups, downs and advice. (prkiller)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by prkiller »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">For a communicator, this one has worked great for me. Does what it's suppose to and it was pretty cheap.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...=WDVW
</TD></TR></TABLE>
wow, thats going for cheap. what do they end up usualy selling for? how high should one bid?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...=WDVW
</TD></TR></TABLE>
wow, thats going for cheap. what do they end up usualy selling for? how high should one bid?
06-09-2005, 12:24 PM
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Re: Track Day instructors... ups, downs and advice. (ralphie14)
Communication: I wound up buying mine from OGRacing:
http://www.ogracing.com/eshop/default.asp
I would suggest calling them, and not ordering this online... Matt's the dude.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by D.CACO »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">1) I establish a "no pressure" atmosphere. Drive slow if they want, and don't worry about lap traffic until the passing zones. Give them "permission" to be completely comfortable and slow.
2) Get to know them. I like to find out what they do for a living, etc... so that I can assess what type of learning style they use, and adjust my instruction accordingly (i.e. Verbal, Visual, Kenesthic, Demonstrated, etc...)
3) I usually ask them, "What do you want to achieve today, so that at the end of the day you will feel like it was a day well spent?" Find out what their goal is for the day, and help them achieve that. You might be surprised by what they say.
4) What i have found to be effective is empahasizing VISUAL skills and looking waaaaayyyy ahead... when they do that, the line becomes that much more natural to understand. Bigger picture/peripheral vision.
5) Oh yeah, I also ask them:
Did you check you oil? Did you check your tire pressures? WHAT pressure are they at? (This almost always gets em) Did you torque your lugs? etc...
Visually inspect their cars, as you know, your life might* depend on its reliability.
-Dennis </TD></TR></TABLE>
I couldn't find a place to place an elipsys (sp?) you know one of these things (...) excellent stuff.
Thanks
http://www.ogracing.com/eshop/default.asp
I would suggest calling them, and not ordering this online... Matt's the dude.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by D.CACO »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">1) I establish a "no pressure" atmosphere. Drive slow if they want, and don't worry about lap traffic until the passing zones. Give them "permission" to be completely comfortable and slow.
2) Get to know them. I like to find out what they do for a living, etc... so that I can assess what type of learning style they use, and adjust my instruction accordingly (i.e. Verbal, Visual, Kenesthic, Demonstrated, etc...)
3) I usually ask them, "What do you want to achieve today, so that at the end of the day you will feel like it was a day well spent?" Find out what their goal is for the day, and help them achieve that. You might be surprised by what they say.
4) What i have found to be effective is empahasizing VISUAL skills and looking waaaaayyyy ahead... when they do that, the line becomes that much more natural to understand. Bigger picture/peripheral vision.
5) Oh yeah, I also ask them:
Did you check you oil? Did you check your tire pressures? WHAT pressure are they at? (This almost always gets em) Did you torque your lugs? etc...
Visually inspect their cars, as you know, your life might* depend on its reliability.
-Dennis </TD></TR></TABLE>
I couldn't find a place to place an elipsys (sp?) you know one of these things (...) excellent stuff.
Thanks
06-09-2005, 12:28 PM
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Re: Track Day instructors... ups, downs and advice. (Crack Monkey)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Crack Monkey »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
look for flags, check mirrors, check gauges, check gear selection, </TD></TR></TABLE>
this is a must!!! if they don't get anything else all weekend make sure they get this
FLAGS
MIRRORS
GUAGES!!!
in that order
make them point to the flag station or talk to you to make sure you know they are seeing it!!!
THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING!!! your flaggers!!! NEVER FORGET THAT!!!
you can drive anywhere on the track but i want you to be able to tell me if there is a flag at the next station as soon as you see it!!
if you can not do this we will pit every lap until you do!!
why you ask....well if they can pick up the flag that means that are looking ahead and thinking about what is coming up!!! they will not be fixated on this corner!!
just my opinion...
look for flags, check mirrors, check gauges, check gear selection, </TD></TR></TABLE>
this is a must!!! if they don't get anything else all weekend make sure they get this
FLAGS
MIRRORS
GUAGES!!!
in that order
make them point to the flag station or talk to you to make sure you know they are seeing it!!!
THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING!!! your flaggers!!! NEVER FORGET THAT!!!
you can drive anywhere on the track but i want you to be able to tell me if there is a flag at the next station as soon as you see it!!
if you can not do this we will pit every lap until you do!!
why you ask....well if they can pick up the flag that means that are looking ahead and thinking about what is coming up!!! they will not be fixated on this corner!!
just my opinion...
06-09-2005, 12:31 PM
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Re: Track Day instructors... ups, downs and advice. (asoduk)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by asoduk »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">... make them comfortable. ...i also like to take extra food, water, oil, etc in case there is a beginner student who didn't know.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'm going to have to make a quick-list.
One other thing that I read, and wasn't sure if or even how well it will work, was to bring a small clip board and jot down a few notes during a session to bring up after the session is over. I can see this being a plus so I don't forget to bring things up and I can also see this being a distraction to the student.
Still looking for horror stories and/or success stories.
I'm going to have to make a quick-list.
One other thing that I read, and wasn't sure if or even how well it will work, was to bring a small clip board and jot down a few notes during a session to bring up after the session is over. I can see this being a plus so I don't forget to bring things up and I can also see this being a distraction to the student.
Still looking for horror stories and/or success stories.
06-09-2005, 01:17 PM
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Re: Track Day instructors... ups, downs and advice. (emwavey)
how can you guys forget the #1 ghettoracer rule. drive the students cars.
has anyone used Peltor's intercom? the chatterbox is decent but i'm thinking the Peltor's should be better... they are not that much more expensive.
has anyone used Peltor's intercom? the chatterbox is decent but i'm thinking the Peltor's should be better... they are not that much more expensive.
06-09-2005, 01:21 PM
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Re: Track Day instructors... ups, downs and advice. (R you serious)
the Nady's are okay, they've been around forever it seems like. before the chatterbox came around, almost all the instructors were on Nady's. they are a little bit more fragile you have to be more careful about them. sound quality is fine. their office is actually in SF Bay... in Emeryville. as for price, under $50 bucks is good. they look to be new units?!
06-09-2005, 05:24 PM
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Re: Track Day instructors... ups, downs and advice. (R you serious)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by R you serious »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
wow, thats going for cheap. what do they end up usualy selling for? how high should one bid?</TD></TR></TABLE>
As stated, around 50 or so. I think mine was 45 bucks!
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by quisp »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">how can you guys forget the #1 ghettoracer rule. drive the students cars.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I don't think anyone wanted to open that can of worms!
wow, thats going for cheap. what do they end up usualy selling for? how high should one bid?</TD></TR></TABLE>
As stated, around 50 or so. I think mine was 45 bucks!
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by quisp »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">how can you guys forget the #1 ghettoracer rule. drive the students cars.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I don't think anyone wanted to open that can of worms!
06-09-2005, 05:36 PM
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Re: Track Day instructors... ups, downs and advice. (emwavey)
I usually tell them to leave it in 4th gear until told otherwise.
Instead of pointing out what someone has done wrong, I'll ask him to tell me what he/she thinks he did. That way you're not criticizing all the time but you still admonish the mistake.
Don't forget to teach the student how to properly throw a peace sign and one leg out the window while sliding the car too.
Instead of pointing out what someone has done wrong, I'll ask him to tell me what he/she thinks he did. That way you're not criticizing all the time but you still admonish the mistake.
Don't forget to teach the student how to properly throw a peace sign and one leg out the window while sliding the car too.
06-09-2005, 05:38 PM
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Re: Track Day instructors... ups, downs and advice. (prkiller)
The Chatterbox's are 1000000000x better than the Nadys. Once, we had a BMWCCA school, and about 50 new/newish nadys. During the event, I swear more than 50% of them were having problems.
My original chatterbox has been through 3+ years and still kicks ***. If you plan on instructing regularly, I highly recommend the additional investment. It will save you grief, and your lungs, in the long run.
-Dennis "looking forward to instructing this upcoming NASA weekend" Caco
My original chatterbox has been through 3+ years and still kicks ***. If you plan on instructing regularly, I highly recommend the additional investment. It will save you grief, and your lungs, in the long run.
-Dennis "looking forward to instructing this upcoming NASA weekend" Caco
06-09-2005, 06:38 PM
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Please remember that all drivers have differing levels of ability, adjust your instruction to their needs. Some need the hand signals and some just need positive reinforcement.