A little FSAE testing with vids!
11-03-2004, 02:15 PM
#26
Junior Member
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Columbus, OH, USA
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: (Angry Joe)
Agreed... there are several schools that have proven their wing packages to be usefull (ie, the produce enough downforce to be meaningful and overcome the increase on CoG). For a bigger school that has the resources (ie, wind tunnel and CFD time), go for it. For a smaller school, there's probably better gains to be made elsewhere.
The windscoop on the back of our car was supposed to have an open bottom, but from what I'm told, the judges wanted it closed off. That way, if the car were to roll, the fluids wouldn't hit the driver.
The windscoop on the back of our car was supposed to have an open bottom, but from what I'm told, the judges wanted it closed off. That way, if the car were to roll, the fluids wouldn't hit the driver.
11-03-2004, 07:50 PM
#27
Member
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Pine Mountain, GA, USA
Posts: 1,890
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: A little FSAE testing with vids! (Nate)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Nate »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">we are running a NA Honda F3, 600cc. The restrictor is small, real small, I am on suspension and controls team, so I am not 100% sure of the restrictor size.
-nate</TD></TR></TABLE>
This brings up a point that I have been confused with for a while, and part of the reason I didn't join Formula.
I'm on the Auburn Mini-Baja team, but am friends with several of the formula guys. It just seems that formula teams in general are very compartmitalized in their design roles. Even I knew what the restrictor size was, but you, and several guys on our F team didn't know.
I personally can build our 04 frame from memory alone, down to the last peice of safety wire. I know every size, every ratio, every degree measurement. On 05, I've had a part in designing every single piece of the new car, suspension, frame, drivetrain, steering, brakes, body, tire choice, and I'm only the ergonomics designer. I don't see that abiltiy from Formula teams, down to the basics, dealing with regulations like restrictor sizes. I think this something that everyone should work around. It builds a wide team base, helps getting new ideas flowing, and creates good teams in years to come.
-nate</TD></TR></TABLE>
This brings up a point that I have been confused with for a while, and part of the reason I didn't join Formula.
I'm on the Auburn Mini-Baja team, but am friends with several of the formula guys. It just seems that formula teams in general are very compartmitalized in their design roles. Even I knew what the restrictor size was, but you, and several guys on our F team didn't know.
I personally can build our 04 frame from memory alone, down to the last peice of safety wire. I know every size, every ratio, every degree measurement. On 05, I've had a part in designing every single piece of the new car, suspension, frame, drivetrain, steering, brakes, body, tire choice, and I'm only the ergonomics designer. I don't see that abiltiy from Formula teams, down to the basics, dealing with regulations like restrictor sizes. I think this something that everyone should work around. It builds a wide team base, helps getting new ideas flowing, and creates good teams in years to come.
11-03-2004, 08:33 PM
#28
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: The Angry Hand
Posts: 927
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: A little FSAE testing with vids! (Goullish)
Goullish, I think you have the wrong impression about FSAE teams. My FSAE team is very involved and ideas are shared throughout the teams. The need for specialized teams is imperative in order to get the work done and keep people focused on one thing. The amount of work to do well is astounding! Formula Baja is not as in-depth, but the nature of the competition does not require that.
I also do not know much about the engine team because it bores me
Suspension is my slice of cake! So i am damn glad i don't have to do anything with it.
-nate
I also do not know much about the engine team because it bores me
Suspension is my slice of cake! So i am damn glad i don't have to do anything with it.-nate
11-03-2004, 09:16 PM
#29
Junior Member
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Columbus, OH, USA
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: A little FSAE testing with vids! (Goullish)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Goullish »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
This brings up a point that I have been confused with for a while, and part of the reason I didn't join Formula.
I'm on the Auburn Mini-Baja team, but am friends with several of the formula guys. It just seems that formula teams in general are very compartmitalized in their design roles. Even I knew what the restrictor size was, but you, and several guys on our F team didn't know.
I personally can build our 04 frame from memory alone, down to the last peice of safety wire. I know every size, every ratio, every degree measurement. On 05, I've had a part in designing every single piece of the new car, suspension, frame, drivetrain, steering, brakes, body, tire choice, and I'm only the ergonomics designer. I don't see that abiltiy from Formula teams, down to the basics, dealing with regulations like restrictor sizes. I think this something that everyone should work around. It builds a wide team base, helps getting new ideas flowing, and creates good teams in years to come.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I think you have the wrong impression of FSAE.
There is certainly teamwork between the three teams (Engine, Suspension, and Frame), otherwise this car would never get built. There is a lot of work and discussions between the 3 teams that goes into integrating these systems together. That is where teamwork comes into play.
FSAE is a big undertaking, and people HAVE to specialize in their areas of expertise... otherwise it will NEVER come together. That means focusing on your area of specialities (ie, becoming an expert in your area of responsibility). Whether or not the suspension team knows the size of the restrictor is meaningless... However, teamwork comes into play because the Suspension team needs to know how the engine components are being packaged, and everyone needs to be mindful of engine power so that the power/weight ratio can be maximized. If Nate had enough time to memorize all the specifics of the Engine Team's area of responsibility, then he obviously wouldn't be utilzing his time wisely.
FWIW, this is what industry is like. You have multiple departments/business units (ie, areas of specialty) coming together to make a single product. Everyone has an area of speciality which the focus on, and they bring those together form a team.
For Baja, its a smaller scope project, and people can be come wider in their areas of focus. We've done Baja teams with 4 people, and been quite sucessful. Obviously there's Baja teams out there with more people than our FSAE team and Baja Teams combined, but in my experience, you can generally staff a Baja team with less people than an FSAE team.
Jonathan
This brings up a point that I have been confused with for a while, and part of the reason I didn't join Formula.
I'm on the Auburn Mini-Baja team, but am friends with several of the formula guys. It just seems that formula teams in general are very compartmitalized in their design roles. Even I knew what the restrictor size was, but you, and several guys on our F team didn't know.
I personally can build our 04 frame from memory alone, down to the last peice of safety wire. I know every size, every ratio, every degree measurement. On 05, I've had a part in designing every single piece of the new car, suspension, frame, drivetrain, steering, brakes, body, tire choice, and I'm only the ergonomics designer. I don't see that abiltiy from Formula teams, down to the basics, dealing with regulations like restrictor sizes. I think this something that everyone should work around. It builds a wide team base, helps getting new ideas flowing, and creates good teams in years to come.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I think you have the wrong impression of FSAE.
There is certainly teamwork between the three teams (Engine, Suspension, and Frame), otherwise this car would never get built. There is a lot of work and discussions between the 3 teams that goes into integrating these systems together. That is where teamwork comes into play.
FSAE is a big undertaking, and people HAVE to specialize in their areas of expertise... otherwise it will NEVER come together. That means focusing on your area of specialities (ie, becoming an expert in your area of responsibility). Whether or not the suspension team knows the size of the restrictor is meaningless... However, teamwork comes into play because the Suspension team needs to know how the engine components are being packaged, and everyone needs to be mindful of engine power so that the power/weight ratio can be maximized. If Nate had enough time to memorize all the specifics of the Engine Team's area of responsibility, then he obviously wouldn't be utilzing his time wisely.
FWIW, this is what industry is like. You have multiple departments/business units (ie, areas of specialty) coming together to make a single product. Everyone has an area of speciality which the focus on, and they bring those together form a team.
For Baja, its a smaller scope project, and people can be come wider in their areas of focus. We've done Baja teams with 4 people, and been quite sucessful. Obviously there's Baja teams out there with more people than our FSAE team and Baja Teams combined, but in my experience, you can generally staff a Baja team with less people than an FSAE team.
Jonathan
11-03-2004, 09:16 PM
#30
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Off Course
Posts: 1,159
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: A little FSAE testing with vids! (Goullish)
We divided our design responsibilities, but kept each other pretty well in the loop - our team was pretty small so we only had a few areas - chassis/suspension, engine, drivetrain and body. It was not a segregated enviornment, and we helped each other out on projects.
11-03-2004, 10:09 PM
#31
Member
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Pine Mountain, GA, USA
Posts: 1,890
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: A little FSAE testing with vids! (Nate)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Nate »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Goullish, I think you have the wrong impression about FSAE teams. My FSAE team is very involved and ideas are shared throughout the teams. The need for specialized teams is imperative in order to get the work done and keep people focused on one thing. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I'm not saying that design shouldn't be broken down, of course it is that way. We have frame, suspension (2 parts, VD and design, also 2 parts, front and rear [same designer this year]), controls, float, etc. etc. Our design team is 8 members total.
But, everyone of us knows what the other is doing, and why. And everyone of us can lead a slight input into each other's field. While not in-depth, such as, I couldn't take over frame design, on broader design decisions the whole team gets together (twice a week, minimum, plus time in the shop, which is constant) to debate and understand why something is that way. That way, everyone understands at least the basics of every peice of the car. This helps us acomplish our goals much faster.
Perhaps I have been given a drastically different impression, it just seems like for most Formula teams it's almost broken down too much.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Nate »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">. The amount of work to do well is astounding! Formula Baja is not as in-depth, but the nature of the competition does not require that.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'm not quite sure where you got the impression that our series is not as in-depth as Formula. While it is true that you guys work more with precise numbers, we don't have that luxury, since our course is changing with every single lap and every single race is different. We also don't have the luxury of engine work (Erks me to no end), but we make up for that with Float (yes, our cars float), soil studies, fatique studies (Our cars don't run for 2 hours on a constant flat surface. The West race this year is going to be 8 hours long, with considerable elevation and dynamic track additions [read - logs, stumps, jumps, creeks])
Just like for you, the amount of work to do well is astounding for us as well. There's a reason I've grown comfortable using a Dunlop tire for a pillow.
Anyways, as usual, I've written too much for anyone to care to read.
I'm not saying that design shouldn't be broken down, of course it is that way. We have frame, suspension (2 parts, VD and design, also 2 parts, front and rear [same designer this year]), controls, float, etc. etc. Our design team is 8 members total.
But, everyone of us knows what the other is doing, and why. And everyone of us can lead a slight input into each other's field. While not in-depth, such as, I couldn't take over frame design, on broader design decisions the whole team gets together (twice a week, minimum, plus time in the shop, which is constant) to debate and understand why something is that way. That way, everyone understands at least the basics of every peice of the car. This helps us acomplish our goals much faster.
Perhaps I have been given a drastically different impression, it just seems like for most Formula teams it's almost broken down too much.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Nate »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">. The amount of work to do well is astounding! Formula Baja is not as in-depth, but the nature of the competition does not require that.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'm not quite sure where you got the impression that our series is not as in-depth as Formula. While it is true that you guys work more with precise numbers, we don't have that luxury, since our course is changing with every single lap and every single race is different. We also don't have the luxury of engine work (Erks me to no end), but we make up for that with Float (yes, our cars float), soil studies, fatique studies (Our cars don't run for 2 hours on a constant flat surface. The West race this year is going to be 8 hours long, with considerable elevation and dynamic track additions [read - logs, stumps, jumps, creeks])
Just like for you, the amount of work to do well is astounding for us as well. There's a reason I've grown comfortable using a Dunlop tire for a pillow.
Anyways, as usual, I've written too much for anyone to care to read.
11-03-2004, 10:10 PM
#32
Member
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Pine Mountain, GA, USA
Posts: 1,890
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: A little FSAE testing with vids! (BUJonathan)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BUJonathan »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">We've done Baja teams with 4 people, and been quite sucessful. Jonathan</TD></TR></TABLE>
Just curious, define "quite successful".
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BUJonathan »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">For Baja, its a smaller scope project, </TD></TR></TABLE>
At the risk of thread jacking and making an *** of myself, I have to say, Baja teams seem to get this a lot from Formula, and I can't understand why. It actually annoys me a good bit.
While it is true that there are many baja teams out there that are 4 people that are just there to have fun, those people don't succeed.
As for the smaller scope, I have to disagree. It's just a difference of perspective really. Where Formula works with precision, granted to you guys by a "constant" track. Now I know you guys don't consider different types of asphault and concrete different, but it's constant compared to gravel to hard pack to mud to a lake to marsh slop.
So, where you guys have the engine team, we have soil and fatigue studies. Where you have aero guys, we have float (yes, we put the float through serious flow studies). Fluid drag for the float is one of the most important aspects of the East race we have. Where you have hard/soft/intermediate compound tyre choice, we have 100s upon 100s of lug design choices that if we get wrong we will be off pace by 10s of seconds, not 10ths.
Anyways, it's not really worth getting heated over.
Modified by Goullish at 1:22 AM 11/4/2004
Just curious, define "quite successful".
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BUJonathan »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">For Baja, its a smaller scope project, </TD></TR></TABLE>
At the risk of thread jacking and making an *** of myself, I have to say, Baja teams seem to get this a lot from Formula, and I can't understand why. It actually annoys me a good bit.
While it is true that there are many baja teams out there that are 4 people that are just there to have fun, those people don't succeed.
As for the smaller scope, I have to disagree. It's just a difference of perspective really. Where Formula works with precision, granted to you guys by a "constant" track. Now I know you guys don't consider different types of asphault and concrete different, but it's constant compared to gravel to hard pack to mud to a lake to marsh slop.
So, where you guys have the engine team, we have soil and fatigue studies. Where you have aero guys, we have float (yes, we put the float through serious flow studies). Fluid drag for the float is one of the most important aspects of the East race we have. Where you have hard/soft/intermediate compound tyre choice, we have 100s upon 100s of lug design choices that if we get wrong we will be off pace by 10s of seconds, not 10ths.
Anyways, it's not really worth getting heated over.
Modified by Goullish at 1:22 AM 11/4/2004
11-04-2004, 10:50 AM
#33
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: ny/me, usa
Posts: 1,944
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: A little FSAE testing with vids! (Nate)
Cornell is making some new changes for this year
look for a completely new engine package
Good amount of suspension testing is also underway
look for a completely new engine package
Good amount of suspension testing is also underway
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
PIC Performance
Road Racing / Autocross & Time Attack
7
05-21-2008 02:01 PM
litterbox
All Motor / Naturally Aspirated
46
07-02-2005 07:48 AM
