PatrickGSR94

iTrader: (1)

ah magnets, like how the same magnetic poles repel each other. It's probably something like a cylinder with like-pole magnets at each end, in its most simple form.

Mrjdm97

low is a lifestyle for a lot of people i live it lol

psychoboy

high speed linear actuators in place of the normal strut assembly.

this is at least two years old, and has been in development for over 20......


30 seconds of googling would tell you what you evidently didn't already know.

psychoboy

please explain this.

how does a compressible volume of air operate differently than a spring?

as the piston goes thru its stroke, air is forced thru orifices on both sides of the piston....how is that different than the operation of a shock?



and, before the car got on air, it was on springs...as were the two before it. suspension compliance ride was very similar on all three cars, as were ground interference concerns.

Whats Up DOHC

Well for one a compressible volume of gas is nowhere near as linear in force as a typical suspension spring, over the typical range of operation.

Likewise damping rates are not similar.

Plus every time you raise or drop your car you change the properties (pressure + temperature) of the gas, which affects consistency. I'm certain leaks are a constant issue, that also affects ride.

So the two, especially in the context of a lowrider vs a car on quality coilovers, are not comparable. I live in NYC where the roads are awful... that Lude wouldn't make it a mile thru BK w/o punching its oil pan on something. And while it was mobile you would either have to drive at 5 MPH, or you'd be scraping on the ground all the time. If a car can't be driven here IMO it has a shitty suspension setup... so regardless of what you say or have built, just the fact that that Lude has .5" of suspension/chassis travel makes it unusable. You can't carry ****/people in it. You can't drive fast in it. You can't drive over shitty streets with it. How is it a "good" suspension setup?

civexspeedy

In my post I never questioned how air ride and conventional shock/spring suspension differ in operation. My post was made fully in reference to the title and topic of this thread. Operation is not being discussed.

I guess my point I was saying by your car is an outlier being on air ride is that the ride quality(title/topic of thread) differs vastly than what a shock/spring suspension offers.

For example: take 2 exact same cars, say 5th gen civics since they are so popular here. One with air ride and one with coilover suspension. Both set at the exact same height.(let's say tucking some tire to fit the slammed title/topic of thread). To do this with the coilovers, you'll NEED atleast500lbs/in springs and some mighty good shocks in order for your suspension to still function properly. Will these two cars offer similar ride quality? Will air ride be relatively smoother? Or will the coilovers be smoother?

I've never dealt with air ride, but my best guessed answer is going to be the coilover suspension car is going to have much worse ride quality. Thus reinforcing the title/topic of this thread and proving your car(and cars on air ride) would be exceptions.

BTW, I've had 450/550 rates with Koni sports and about a finger gap between tire/fender before on my civic. I currently have 650/800 rates with revalved Konis and same ride height. Not a SINGLE person who has ever ridden in my car has ever even came close to saying my car rode even remotely smooth. To drop it any more would just make the ride quality worse. Again, reinforcing the title/topic of thread.

Libertariat

Lol, it's hard to imagine driving 650/800 on the street.

350/350 is getting old though, I'm ready for something like 550/450

Whats Up DOHC

Might just need new shocks brah

I had 300/200 + Koni Yellows on my Accord and it rode + handled perfect

Was nowhere near slammed but was much more enjoyable.

civexspeedy

It sucks, don't do it haha. There's a reason why that suspension is on my race car and I have a nice smooth daily driver lol.

Libertariat

My shocks are 5 months old. Car rides great. With 350+ rates in the back you just notice every bump in the road. The car is by no means bouncy or uncomfortable.

psychoboy

so, the pneumatic cylinder functions as a progressive rate spring....

which "typical suspension spring" were you referring to? the linear rate springs so often sold as performance upgrades?

thank to the constant weight of the car and constant size of the piston, and the variable pressure based volume, the spring rate stays fairly constant thru most of its range of operation. the instant rates are progressive, but the static rates of each height thru the stoke stays very flat, until the limits of the stroke are reached.

since the limits of the stroke are intentionally removed from the limits of the chassis, i rarely run in the margins, unless i'm intending to. when i am running in the margins, i expect a lower quality ride (either from bottoming out the car, or topping out the cylinders)

i didn't say the rates were similar, i said the function was similar. you've already said the spring rates are different, having different damping rates should be expected.

the air orifices control how quickly the rod moves, in compression and in rebound, much like the oil orifices in a shock.

do you have some information that indicates fluid dynamics change depending on the application? sure, the gas holes are bigger (and the pressures lower), but the fluid doesn't stop moving just because it's damping a gas spring instead of a metal one.


since pressure and height are directly related, each time the car is at the same height, the pressure is the same, regardless of temperature. since i run nitrogen, my pressure/temperature oddities are smoother than the standard air inflated car tire.


how can you be certain?

leaks result in height loss. as noted before, static rates are largely unchanged across the stroke.

both have springs, both have damping, both hold up the weight of the car and absorb impacts from the road surface. while the numbers might not be similar, the effect is.


actually, it probably would. the oil pan has a 1/4" plate welded to the bottom of it. and in Oklahoma, the roads aren't any better...just longer.

that car was regularly driven in excess of posted limits

it could also have a shitty driver, i suppose.

actually, that lude had over 10 inches of suspension travel. it stood up over stock when it was all the way up.

i moved halfway across oklahoma in it....pulling a trailer. just had to bump the pressure in the rear a little.

guess i need to give back the money i won bracket racing it.

i put 12 thousand miles a year on it in oklahoma....evidently, i can.

because i can raise it to a more useful ride height with the punch of a button when necessary, and not lose the ride?
because it performs as expected, when expected?
because it lends itself to tuning on the fly or with the turn of a handle?

psychoboy

you said my car was an outlier, because of the air suspension.

i'm asking you to further develop that theory.

how so? specifically?

define "still function properly".

do you mean "prevent the car from bottoming out" or "prevent the suspension from bottoming out" or "provide the desired ride compliance"?


it doesn't reinforce the title, it refutes it. the title is black and white, your exceptions introduce gray.

since air and metal/oil function similarly in this situation, it is easy to assume there is a metal/oil solution that provides the same functionality as air (tho it might not be as simple as bolting on some piece of advice from people who aren't actually working on the car)

why?

because of the loss of ground clearance?
because of suspension interference (internal or external)?

you aren't changing the springs, you aren't changing the damping rate. the compliance of your suspension doesn't change just because it's in a new location (everything else being equal)

dunno about that, but it does reinforce my first post in this thread almost two years ago.

TunerN00b

Essentially, if you simplified the concept.


Depending on design, you should be able to get suspension position feedback from it, allowing all kinds of computer controlled adjustment possibilities since the spring rate and ride height can be dynamically adjusted, independently of each other even.



psychoboy, you pretty much need to let this one go. What really makes you the outlier is that, in your mind, hitting the chassis on the pavement doesn't count against ride quality. In a technical sense, I'll agree, that the ground isn't part of the suspension's role in ride quality. However, technicalities don't matter when either way your head hits the ceiling on occasion.

Think of it this way, would your mother find the ride quality of your car acceptable? Or would she complain about a "rough ride" when sparks fly as the chassis slams into the pavement? And if so, how is that really any different than how she would complain about the roughness of my nearly intolerably stiff linear springs that don't bottom out anything?

Whats Up DOHC

Yea there is just no way 1/2 an inch of ground clearance can be part of a car w/good ride quality.

civexspeedy

I think you are looking way too far into when I say outlier. There is no theory to develop lol. Outlier, different, uncommon, exception, etc... take your pick, all the same. Your car had an air ride suspension. How many cars on Honda-Tech are using air ride? How many modified suspension cars in general use air ride? Like 5-10% maybe? That's what I mean by your car is an outlier when it comes to riding slammed and having a relatively smooth ride. The vast MAJORITY of lowered cars use a typical shock/spring setup.

Your suspension is supposed to absorb the imperfections in the road, obviously. When you slam a car with a typical shock/spring setup, you run the risk of bottoming out(either on the bump stop or, if you're stupid and not using a bump stop to slam your car, internally in the shock). Riding the bump stops is NOT ideal. When you do this, your car "skips" over bumps and imperfections in the road, REDUCING grip and performance and also reducing ride quality. So in order for your suspension to still do its job at such a low ride height, you NEED to use stiff springs to keep your car from riding the bump stops and allow your suspension to absorb what it can. You can go pretty low with some of the double-wish bone suspension cars, but no matter what, the lower you go, the stiffer the spring you'll need. Unless you have some crazy externally valved shocks but I highly doubt the average kid who wants to slam his civic can afford that.. Even then, still would want stiff springs to keep you from scraping the ground with the body. With McPherson suspension, you have even LESS suspension travel and it gets real hard to slam a car using a typical shock/spring. Again, to go low with a McStrut suspension, you'll need high spring rates which reduces ride quality.

Like the title states: slam your car, you give up ride quality(high spring rates and agressive shocks to handle them and the ride height).

I don't think anyone, esp me, is arguing HOW air ride works and/or how similar/dissimilar it's function is compared to shock/springs.

What we ARE arguing is that with a typical shock/spring suspension, being slammed will reduce ride quality. PERIOD. Like I said above, you are an exception. If you want, you should make another thread saying "You CAN ride slammed AND have a SMOOTH ride with AIR RIDE".

I use my car for AutoX. I had 450/550 rates so my car would handle better. What I inadvertantly found out is how low I could actually go with the car before it defeated the purpose of having good handling.

When I first got my 450/550 setup, I "slammed" the car for a photoshoot. Some on here probably don't even consider this to be extremely low...

I quickly noticed that even over slight bumps/dips that I was hitting the bump stops up front. And that's with 450/550 springs! That's pretty stiff already. So, if I left the ride height as it was in the picture, I would be hitting the bump stops a lot which results in NOT HAVING A SMOOTH RIDE(or a well performaning one). For street driving and racing, I raised it up to about a finger gap and put extended top hats on the car. No more hitting the bump stops but because the car still sat fairly low I NEEDED those rates to prevent bottoming out. Even when the car was raised, the ride quality was still VERY rough because of the stiff springs.

and I DID change the springs. I used 450/550 Eibach springs for about a year. Then I decided to change the springs for 650/800 Eibach springs. In order to use such stiff springs, I had to have my Koni's revavled(by TrueChoice) so they would not blow out and do their job. I've been on this setup for 2+ years. Sitting at a finger gap, the ride is extremely rough on the streets. In absolutely no way could this ride ever be considered smooth.

If you change your ride height from one point to another WITHOUT any interference of the bump stops, then generally ride quality won't change much,l if at all. But when you drop a car more and more, spring rates/shocks being the same, you raise the chances of hitting/riding the bump stops which reduces ride quality. Also, there is a point when you are TOO low and you screw up the geometry of your suspension which DOES affect ride quality and most definitely performance. Look at the RoadRace/Autocross/TimeAttack section on H-T, the vast majority of those cars aren't slammed or dumped to the ground, for good reason.

What don't you get? To lower a civic to the point that it's tucking the tires, you NEED stiff springs and agressive shocks to adequetly handle them. Stiffer springs=loss ride quality. Don't look any further into it, it's that simple..

Libertariat

This!!!!!

Btw, always thought falken hanabis were great

psychoboy

they do when you don't understand why your head is hitting the ceiling.

she never had a problem with the ride in that car. of course, i drove it at its normal drive height of ~2" with her in it.

i dunno, your springs are stiffer than anything i would drive my mom around in. in fact, i think your springs are stiffer than anything i would drive myself around in that wasn't on a track...and even then i have to wonder.

if riding the bumpstops results in loss of tire control and poor ride, then how does running springs that are all but bumpstops help?

psychoboy

and again i ask...

my suspension operates in the same fashion as yours. except mine isn't harsh (probably because the effective rates are lower).


looked at from another angle: you drive from NYC to NOLA. I fly that route instead. we're both got the same job done, but we used different methods.

the method of travel might be an outlier, the destination result isn't.

but your suggestion is that my suspension AND my result are both outliers, that prove the thread title false.

my contention that there is a non-outlier (steel and oil) method to achieve my results...which further proves the black and white thread title incorrect (or at the least, overly generalized)

or you could move the bumpstops further from the static height...

to keep it away from the ground, i assume, since everything else is moveable


or keep your desired ride and recognize that you're gonna have ground clearance issues (and, honestly, who doesn't?)

no, you're just arguing that it has results that are unattainable with metal and oil.

but that thread title would be as incorrect as this one.


which returns me to the question i had above, if your springs are so hard that they barely deflect, resulting in poor tire contact, how does that help handling?

further, what are you trying to achieve with such high rates all the way around? limit pitch and roll? limit suspension compression/bottoming out the shocks? limit ground contact? change oversteer/understeer characteristics?

are there not ways to solve those problems without creating the harsh ride your car now has?

unless you move those bumpstops away from the static height.

that refutes the title of the other sticky in this section, doesn't it? the "you don't need camber kits" thread?


i don't disagree that stiffer springs (especially linear ones) result in harsher rides (as i noted in my first post in this thread).

i disagree with the notion that you have to have stiff linear springs in your car if you are riding lowered, or that those are the only option (which is the concept stated by the title of this thread).

Whats Up DOHC

Air ride is beyond the scope of the avg tuner

Its not just the suspension itself... its all the weight and maintenance for it

Really doesn't have a place in this discussion IMO.

Its like saying "you cant have a cheap torquey B16!" and some fabricator comes in like "well actually i combined two B16s to make V8 and i did it with stuff i had around my house so this thread is wrong". Cmon man

civexspeedy

Because you are still getting suspension travel! Even with 2000lb/in springs... A lot of track only, full blown race cars use 1000+lb/in springs. They are not removing their shock/spring and welding in solid metal for a reason. You NEED some suspension travel, albeit extremely minimal. Travel keeps the tires in contact with the road surface.

This is straying away from the main topic...

civexspeedy

Air ride differs from shock/spring in ride quality. Got it, thanks..

You had air ride suspension, most don't, making it an outlier. Because of this, you can slam your car and have a relatively smoother ride than a similar car at the same height using shocks/springs, making it an outlier. Because you're using air ride, it is an exception that being slammed you can attain a fairly smooth ride. This thread is directed to the majority who use shocks/springs. That proves this thread title is CORRECT for those using shocks/springs, INCORRECT for those using air ride, happy?


How could that be possible if all the bumpstop does is rest on the shock body? Whether the suspension is at rest or in motion, the bumpstops location and it's effect will not change. Sure, you can cut the bump stop down, but there's a point at which it is cut too much and you start to damage your shock internally.


Yes to keep it away from the ground. In the practical sense, not everything else is moveable. Think realistically for a second please...

Which is why it remains an exception to the title of this thread... Air ride and low=relatively smooth ride, I get it. shock/spring and low=rough ride(what the title of the thread and this thread in general is trying to get the point across).

Well then that sucks...

They DO compress. My car weights 2230lbs. Under heavy corner/g-load, the springs will HAVE to compress. However, they do not compress nearly as much as the stock ~100lb/in springs.

I'm trying to achieve better handling through better control. Yes, I am decreasing body roll laterally and forward to aid in corner speed and braking/acceleration. I did not choose these rates because I was concerned about bottoming out or to limit ground contact, I knew I wouldn't be low enough to be concerned about it in the first place.. And yes, I chose those rates specifically to increase oversteer for more accurate car placement and less resistance(understeer) during cornering. Stiffer in the rear for my car results in more oversteer.

Please tell me how you do this on a typical shock/spring setup.


No. And I'm not going into that in this thread.

I think we ALL know the option of air ride is there. However, it is not the most popular one here, and for most people. Just drop the air ride discussion.

Whats Up DOHC

For the price of air ride + installation you could have fcking custom made Moton/GC coilovers anyway.

PatrickGSR94

iTrader: (1)

Because as speedy said, ALL springs have some compliance. When your suspension gets to the point where it can't move any higher (on the bump stops, hitting the frame, etc) your spring rate essentially goes infinite, which causes tires to break traction during hard cornering.

I've about had it with the picked apart line-by-line arguing. The thread title stands, as does my premise of riding slammed, as it is rooted in the physical, natural laws of this universe.