95_Civic_4dr

Original D16Z6 engine.

I've pretty much given up on this car. It just won't start. Bare with me, I'm gonna type a lot but I really need help, maybe someone will spot my error(s).

1. Car was running fine and then...
Here's what happened:
I ordered a Competition Camshaft 59300, Invidia N1 Exhaust, Edelbrock Performer X IM and TB.

The Camshaft was the only thing in stock, so I received it 3 days later. Me being the way I am, I decided to install the camshaft since I still had another month to wait for the rest.
Other small mods:
Intake, Header, Accel Plug wires and Ignition Coil - NGK plugs.

2. I got the camshaft and installed it, everything went perfectly fine. I set the valve lash to 0.010" Exhaust and 0.008" Intake. Car ran fine but was a bit noisy cause of the valve lash. So I planned on taking it to 0.009" Exhaust and 0.007" Intake the next day. I was also running 87 Regular fuel at this time.

3. The next day I get some gas - I tend to switch between 89 and 87 all the time - this time I put a few gallons of 89. I take the car to a tool shop and get some feeler gauges w/ the 0.007" and 0.009". Stopped by my cousins house and started driving home. On the way home I felt a sudden loss of power when accelerating and it got really noisy - sounded like spark knock (but I'm not sure since I've never heard spark knock before). Got home, popped the hood and eventually found that my distributor rotor's screw had backed out and tore up the inside of my distributor. I figured that was cause of the power loss and source of the noise. Went to auto parts store and got a new distributor then installed it. I didn't set the timing and I forgot to mark where the original distributor position was so I just took a best guess on where to place the distributor. Went for a test drive and everything seemed normal again, then 1 mile down the road I get a CEL. Turned back around got home and pulled the code, it was #4 for the CKP.
This time I pulled my timing light out and checked the ignition timing, the spark was way too advanced and no matter how much I retarded the distributor it wouldn't spark at the right time. So I checked mechanical timing, everything was perfect and no matter what I did I couldn't set the ignition timing and always threw a CEL....I decided to reinstall the OEM camshaft.

4. The following day I cleared the CEL and installed the OEM camshaft, started it up and everything was perfect. Ignition timing, mechanical timing, power, noise, no CEL, it was all normal again.

5. 2 days after switching back to the OEM camshaft, I decided to tackle the Competition 59300 again. This time when I went to do the ignition timing I had learned that to set the ignition timing on these cars you need to jump the service connector by the ECU once the car is warmed up. I wasn't aware of the "after it has warmed up" at the time so I jumped the connector when the engine was stone cold and let it warm up. While it was warming up I got the igniting timing set then almost to operating temperature it began to stutter and misfire then died on me - the whole time I was watching the ignition timing and it remained dead on still. I unplugged the service connector jump and tried starting - no start. Pulled the plugs and everything was soaked in fuel...flooded. It also had a new CEL for the CKP stored again. So I let it sit over night and dry out.

6. Next day, I crank her over to blow out any remnants of fuel that might have been in still. I added a little bit of oil to each cylinder to help seal, then tried starting again. It turned over for a few seconds and idled extremely poorly then died. So I let it sit for the rest of the day, went back to it then added a little more oil and tried again. Still no start. Fed up with it not starting I pulled the head off. There was big pools of oil on top of each cylinders so I figure I poored to much in and I'm sure the oil was full of fuel as well. I cleaned everything up, dried all the pistons off, then threw a layer of oil on the cylinder walls to lubricate and help sealing. I also checked the valves to ensure they were seating and they looked good.

7. Now today, the car had sat since the 25th. I went back today and wiped the cylinder walls clean and put a fresh coat of oil on them. Put it all back together (using Comp 59300 camshaft) and tried starting at WOT, she turned over for 3 seconds idled like total crap then died. Tried starting again, no start, just cranked over. I pulled the plugs and could smell and see fuel inside so she was on the way to flooding again. Tried again an hour later, no start. Tried again a few hours later, no start. Checked the mechanical timing and it's all perfect...

I've pretty much given up, it just won't start. I don't know what I'm doing wrong...is it this cam that's causing the no start and flooding? And if it is, why wouldn't it have flooded the first time I had it in or any other times it was in instead of only when I had jumped the service connector?

I've checked the mechanical timing over and over, her compression is about 120psi across (normally 155-160 after warmed up), she has a light-blue/whitish spark, distributor is new, valves appear to be sealing, head gasket is new, no piston damage, head and block are not warped, getting fuel, so I don't know....

Here's the original thread: https://honda-tech.com/forums/honda-civic-del-sol-1992-2000-1/engine-flooded-fuel-now-wont-start-2876780/

BrandonR

You need a NOID light and test the injectors for fire and to make sure there not stuck open. I'd start there. -Later, BR

95_Civic_4dr

I'll pick some up at Harbor Freight and give that a try tomorrow.
These injectors are controlled through the ground side by the ECU correct? So if they were stuck open it could be a faulty ECU?

Edit: If I were to have someone crank the engine over while I listened to the injectors clicking with a stethoscope, that would pretty much tell me if they were stuck open if there was an absence of clicking right? Instead of spending $50 on a noid light set...

95_Civic_4dr

Well, I tried to test the injectors today. Car doesn't crank at all now....
I can hear the starter trying to crank the motor but it just doesn't go anywhere.
I can rotate the crank by hand and battery voltage is at 12.6V....
I don't know if my starter just decided to **** on me now too or what, it's only a year old. And was working fine when I tried to start the car yesterday.

Anyway, I did what injector tests I could without the crank turning. All injectors are at 11.4 Ohms, all are getting 11.6-11.8 volts on the power side, and all are at or less than 0.01 volts on the ground side with key turned to (II).

I'm about to find a cliff for this car and find out how fast a Honda can really go.

EJeff8

Can you crank it by hand? It didn't lock up or anything did it?

EJeff8

Now, you were saying when you timed it the first time, you advanced it and retarded it to no avail, correct? Because you didn't jump it? I don't know if this could be a possible cause, but when you do it without jumping it, you cause the ECU to change it's base settings as you change the timing on it. So possibly you left it with a ****ed up base setting, set the timing right on that f-ed up setting, and those f-ed up settings are causing your engine to act weird? A possibility, albeit a long shot.

Former User

Get rid of the 59300 camshaft.

EJeff8

Haha, that could be your problem too.

EDIT: And to add, why did you buy ALL THESE EXPENSIVE BOLT ONS? It's not a K series, bud. I mean, the Edelbrock **** is $300 a piece, and it isn't going to do jack ****. Why'd you waste the money?

tundra2000

I'm going to throw this out their but have you check all the plugs to see if their sparking?

MelindaRose79

You can't set the timing back to spec because the cam is biggger.. so that means either your not getting enough air and too much fuel... you have to get it tuned...you have to advance or retard the timing to get the ratio perfect. you can't just throw internal parts at a car and expect it to run perfectly without getting it tuned

Former User

I copied your thread to the Engine Management and Tuning forum to help you get additional responses.

95_Civic_4dr

Yeah, cranks easy by hand.

I did fail to mention, the second time I put the camshaft in and while the car was warming up I was able to set the ignition timing pretty much dead on, then it bogged down and died on me, hasn't started since.


Looks like I have no choice.

Well I'm not looking for a ton of power. Here's my logic of it: I'm still all new to the whole modifying thing. So the way I figure it, if I'm gonna screw up on my path to learning all this stuff, I'd rather make all my mistakes and screw up the original 200k mile Z6 on this car before going with a more expensive low mileage B or K and screwing up on that. I've already canceled the other items after all this anyway.

Yeah, all are sparking. But I think what's happening is when they're in the cylinders and I'm trying to start it, as it's cranking and they start getting soaked they start losing the spark strength cause I do have to dry them whenever I pull them out.

Like I said earlier in this post, in the first post I did fail to mention before the car warmed up I was able to get the ignition timing dead on. It was getting close to normal operating temperature then bogged down and died.

FOGO_EK9

It sounds like u got a CKP issue.

apexi_rsx

if the starter clicks but doesn't spin the crank then i would check into poor grounds clean your terminals and make sure u have good grounds even if the ecu does not have a good ground its going to act funny

aGR1o eL DueNo

id check grounds and injectors...if not ill take the car off your hands...if anything my inbox is open.

95_Civic_4dr

Went back to Deathzone and got a replacement distributor and new battery. Car cranks over now and idles but extremely poorly until I turn the key off (Sometimes she'll just die) and only if I hold WOT. She sounds like a really jacked up diesel and back fired 1 or 2 times through the Intake it sounded like. Still looks a bit wet in the cylinders and I did poor some oil down there. When I pull the plugs, whichever one has the valves closed gets a ton of white smoke pouring out and there's usually either fuel or oil covering them - not sure which one. I'm not sure if I should keep trying every now and then or switch the camshaft back to OEM first then keep trying...

Ha, not getting rid of her quite yet.

BrandonR

Is the check engine light on? you may have switched the TPS and MAP sensor plugs. Stop pouring oil into the cylinders. Also, im not sure if you have to degree that camshaft but if you do, then even though the marks line up, it would not be degreed correctly throwing off the mechanical timing altogether. just a thought. -Later, BR

trippintl0

Are you sure you have the firing order correct on the distributor? Also I'm not sure if this is possible but can the distributor be installed 180 degrees out?

95_Civic_4dr

I don't think this is causing my problem, but I was just wondering, is it normal for the IACV to emit a faint humming noise after trying to start the car and leaving the key in (II) position?

No CEL.
I thought about a possible TPS and MAP mix up as well, I took a look and the plug I have going to the TPS is too short to even reach the MAP so I'm sure the plugs are good. I only poured a little in once and that was it, haven't poured any in since.
As far as I know the cam doesn't need degreeing, I read up on it a lot before ordering it and it seemed like everyone else with the D16Z6 pretty much just zero'd the mechanical timing out, dropped the cam in and went, no problems.

Yeah firing order is all good, 1-3-4-2. It's possible, I checked the rotor on the distributor and it's good, points to #1 with the piston at TDC and after it's compression stroke.

wheelmanbg

Have you tried different spark plugs?

00PhillySi

No matter how many other people put in a camshaft without degreeing, you should have. Whenever installing a camshaft it needs to be degreed. Once you fix that issue it may resolve other issues that started to occur. Such as your flooding issue, most likely caused by the ECU being thoroughly confused due to the horribly off time camshafts.

Also, when you're setting the spark timing, don't retard it all the way back to factory timing, depending on what the duration and overlap of this camshaft is, it may not be a bad idea to give it a couple degrees of advance to make it happy.

95_Civic_4dr

Found the problem.

The Key on my cam gear holding the camshaft in place broke off screwing up the mechanical and ignition timing. Definitely explains why it ran perfectly the first day then just took a **** on me. Reason I didn't catch it earlier is because the key did completely separate from the cam gear but never fell out so visually it looked fine and I was able to set all the timing marks by hand, I'm sure at higher RPM's from the starter it was the cause of my no start. I don't think any valves were damage as far as I can tell and the pistons look okay looking down the tubes.

Missing key...


Now here's the last part of my question, I'm sure Competition won't show me any sympathy as far as an exchange goes since I decided to use the OEM cam gear. But this is what it did to the camshaft...
(Sorry for the blurry pics, I don't have my good camera right now)



Now, would you guys deem this camshaft as worthy of reuse or is it pretty much trash? Aside from the indent where the key sits and those outside screwed up edges, everything else is normal...and the indent still looks like there's enough there for a better cam gear.

Obviously next time I'll be using a different and better cam gear.
It's fun being a noob.