Bond

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Ok so I have done some more reading and have a few questions to ask.

I had a well known engine sleeving and building company build my short block. The block is sleeved and fully built, blue printed and balanced.

Question is do these main bearing clearances seem ok?

M1: .0022
M2: .0023
M3: .0023
M4: .0021
M5: .0023

Bearings are ACL race bearings

Oil recommened is 10w-30. That gonna be ok?

Oh and rods are all at .0018

Keep in mind it will be a weekend warrior/track car only. Motor will be boosted and whp goals are trying currently for 500whp.

I also posted this in the forced induction section, but figured some of you guys may not go into that section.

Combustion Contraption

Hmm, without even knowing which engine you're talking about, I will venture a guess and say...


Maybe.

Bond

My apologies.

B18A1 Block (sleeved) with stock crank(micro polished and oil hole chamfer. if that matters I am not sure) and eagle rods.
B16 Head

Rocket

Tighten all the M's except for M3.

Loosen up da rod clearance.

Your clearances are backwards. It's preferential to have the rods looser than the mains (except for the center main which does not feed any rod journals). Da smart folks can figure out why.

Time for all da gurus in da hizzay to come in and clean up. Yay yay, westseyeeeeed.


fo-shizzay!

mar778c

iTrader: (1)

Pretty much what Rocket said,

Seeing as how you are not looking for 100K+ miles and this is boosted, .002" every (rods and mains) except main #3, .0021" or .0022".

omniman

haha you mean all the things that are done to the factory crank. cheap chinese rods and have main bearing clearances that are over the service limit loose side. i guess you dont want to have too much oil pressure at operating temp. lower is better after all right? of course theres the bearings that are a down grade from the OEM bearings, but bearings and rods are not important components anyways.

what map sensor are you using?

mar778c

iTrader: (1)

I've seen you make this statement several times. I'd like to know how you came to that conclusion.

Conan the Destroyer

acl = dual metal, same as oem b16 "green" bearing

oem gsr rod/oem k20 main = tri metal, sized to fit.

but ill let steve clarify that, i might be wrong.

mar778c

iTrader: (1)

I've already checked for the B16A, B18B, and B18C, the bearings are tri-metal.

http://www.aclperformance.com.au/us/...Bearingsus.htm

Like I said, I want omni to explain how he came to that conclusion.

ENDYN

We refuse to build any Honda engine with aftermarket bearings, but then again, like one or two others, we're sticklers for precise clearances.

mar778c

iTrader: (1)

Larry, I respect your work.

But, I designed bearings for machines that make enough power run cities and the clearances on 28 in diameter journals are less than .001 at 3600 rpm. I know the construction and requirements for a bearing. Like I said, I want omni or yourself to explain how acl is inferior to honda.

ENDYN

Our largest single customer measures our work in microns and we can't hold their required tolerances without a good selection of bearings with different thicknesses. Be fully aware that there's even a wide bearing thickness range in a single color of the OE bearings, enabling us to hold tolerances most wouldn't believe.....and you can't do that with one-size fit's all bearings.
My interpretation of Omni's post goes like this.....Honda's production street engines are assembled with the tightest (most accurate) bearing clearances in the industry. Assuming you plan to make more power than a stock Honda engine, it would make sense that you would want to "blueprint" the bottom end, using even closer tolerances (more exacting bearing clearance) than was used in the stocker....so why on earth would you want to take the engine assembly in the opposite direction?
Honda gave us the greatest bearing fitment in the industry, so why not take advantage of it?

mar778c

iTrader: (1)

No doubt, ACL does not make bearings in as wide of a range as honda. Where I'm coming from is green honda versus ACL XXXXXXXH. If both bearings give the same clearance then how is the ACL inferior?

Side note: how are you measuring in the microns, laser?

I still challenge that notion, I would like to see the statistical data that shows the ACL bearings to have more scatter than honda oem green.

Bond

I like the discussion on the bearings guys, but can I get some more insight on my bearing clearances?

So far what I understand is that my mains are a little more on the loose side. Is that really THAT bad or...?

The rod clearance seems to be on par with what eagle wants them at. They are set on the "loose" side at .0018, but I just want to know if I'm in the right range.

Basically am I looking at major failure with these specs?

I'm going to ignore omni's comments as there seems to be alot of biased opinions. (since when have eagle rods been a bad choice. lot's of threads proving otherwise...)

Conan the Destroyer

you guys are talking apples and oranges. endyn larry is talking sizing benefits. understandable.

mar788 is talking bearing vs bearing individual quality.


now given you have a honda motor that measures out to green all the way across thats one thing but he fact of the matter is, that probably wont happen.

Conan the Destroyer

i wouldnt ignore a single thing he says when its in engine building context.

eagle rods are a cookie cutter taiwan rod that cant even be put in the same sentence as carrillo, pauter, or cunningham. THATS what they are getting at.

Bond

Any other responses on my actual topic??


I've read well over 50 threads from the past 3 years regarding bearing specs and most seem to be happy with .0020-.0025 on the mains (race motors with actual track time). For rods it seems .0018-.0020 is also good and widely used with weekend warriors and race motors.


Is there someone else that can give some good insight on my bearing clearances?

Conan the Destroyer

see that guy up there "Master of the universe"? thats Big Bob Martin. you can pretty much take what he says as gospel unless its where to eat and whether or not that girl with the adams apple is "kosher". combine that with a little DonF, mix in some omniman and you have your answer.

the problem is, your bearing specs ARE WHAT THEY ARE, you are waiting for someone to say "thos specs are GREAT" so you will feel warm and fuzzy about what they gave you.

so ill hook you up. "those specs are GREAT!" and truth be told, they arent bad at all.

omniman

http://dwolsten.tripod.com/articles/sep93a.html

its truely amazing how people constantly second guess the clearances of the OEM, as if they just pulled the info from their azz's. its amazing how people are more inclined to beleive what some internet jocky wrote, or his "bro's advice" vs the conclusions that an entire team of engineers came up with (that do nothing but this for a living) that work for a multi billion dollar company and are paid to achieve a result, that spends more on R&D than any other auto manufacturer. is there any intelligence left on this forum? or has it come to just buying the cheapest parts available and crossing our fingers, then when something goes wrong, and it will, make a thread about your misserable failure and how its everyone fault but your own. but then there are so many opinions in different directions how can anyone make a decision.

i started building these engines in 1996 donF has over twice the years of building expereince as me and i see eye to eye with him on nearly everything, which isnt very common. I have found that most people looking for advice really are not, but instead are looking for justification in thier own belief direction, so they keep asking until someone agrees then they become satisfied on their decision. people are not seeking the truth they are seeking others with similar opinions. opinions help us to make decisions without facts.

most of the good engine builders dont really build much anymore because people just wont pay, so the majority of enthusiasts just do it themselves then ask for free advice from the pro's who in no way profit from it. the real talanted people dont show up here much anymore because there really is no point.

i got tired of people instant messaging me about engine advice so i made a dvd about the subject. also i asked people that still IM'd me to please paypal me 10 bucks, that pretty much put a stop to the endless questions and all night discussions. but the few that did take my advice dont post or talk about their problems because they dont have any. the reality is that most people cant afford to properly build their engines, nor no how, and will just end up with a heap of junk and endless problems, till they eventually just run out of money or give up and move on.

Rocket

Remember that movie "Game of Death", pretty much what's going on here.

Bruce Lee died part way through making that movie. You get into this "Game" and a part of you will die from beating your mind raw with trying to talk to da deaf or showing da blind.

Back to the topic. Look in the Helms, study and hopefully learn.

Bond

Your link was a good read.

Honestly you (omni) come off VERY sarcastic and to judge if your speaking seriously or not is hard, to say the least... Maybe thats just your way of communicating with people. It's odd, but I guess that it seems to work for you.

Your first post consisted of sarcastic remarks that are very misleading. Care to reply without any misleading info???

I have been reading my helms alot over the last few days. The real problem is that this is not a "factory" rebuilt motor and the specs very alot.

Rod: .0013 to .0020

Main: .0012-.0019
max limit .002

Oh and I like how most of you rag on me as if I was suppost to know better. I don't and thats the truth. Remember that I had a very well know engine sleeving and building company build this short block (commonly refered to by TWO letters. Let's see if you can figure it out as I don't like openly disclosing their name). Now a few months after being complete I have started to do more research and question some of their specs from the blue printing.

omniman

according to the "factory service manual" the main bearing clearances are as follows
journal 1,2,4,5 .0009-.0017 inch (maximum acceptable is .0020 inch)
journal 3 .0012-.0019 inch (maximum allowable is .0024 because their is no oil hole in the #3 journal so it requires more clearance than the rest)

so your main bearing clearances according to the "factory service manual" (which you obviously have not read) are beyond the service limit or maximum allowable clearance size according to the team of highly trained engineers that designed this engine.

bearing clearances are just like girls......looser isnt better.

one last tid-bit of info. as the engine temperature increases the bearing clearance grows or increases in size. if you make the clearance too loose the oil pressure will be low at operating temp and the harder you drive it the lower it will get. as the oil heats up it becomes thinner and the clearance grows... thinner oil + growing clearance= low oil pressure= failure.

Bond

Again,

I like how most of you rag on me as if I was suppost to know better. I don't and thats the truth. Remember that I had a very well know engine sleeving and building company build this short block (commonly refered to by TWO letters. Let's see if you can figure it out as I don't like openly disclosing their name). Now a few months after being complete I have started to do more research and question some of their specs from the blue printing.


Yes I have read the manual. I only posted the #3 specs

So why would these engineers run such widley spaced limits? Thats not a smart *** comment either. Either way honda says for all mains anything past .002 is a no go.

Thank you for explaining oil clearances and heat. What should I do in my situation? Seeing as how I paid good money to have this block built and now I find out it's way out of spec?

PS: I do respect yours (and everyone elses) opinion and your time to post an answer, I just didn't get the sarcasim before.

omniman

sorry if i came off as an azzhole, my sense of humor is dry and hard to appreciate in words on a forum. im usually really nice, the only time im not is when i dont get paid. if you want free advice from me it comes with a side order of *******. thats how we roll in cali.

Bond

Thats understandable. I don't have anything to offer as payment, but I do appreciate your help.

Regarding my last post, do I need the block to be rebuilt again? Sucks it's looking this way and I have not even ran it yet