nealnanoHX

Why? What is the point is reversing the head on the H22?? All that work and money to make it work correctly...........

NAH2B

for a drag application so the intake ports face forward. makes it very easy to force alot of air into the engine.

but yes very pointless for a mini van application lol maybe the intake simple wouldnt fit between the engine and firewall who knows

zcegdx

iTrader: (4)

Even as a drag setup unless its an allout car thats a waste of money

Professor15

LoL maybe he needed extra powa for all the groceries he's gonna pack in their.

nealnanoHX

Pointless in any case. Even if the intake is at the front and you are running ITB with a ram air effect it is only going to gain maybe 5-10whp at like 100+mph. Totally not worth what it costs to make it work.

NAH2B

you clearly dont have the experience to speak on this subject...

not only are you wrong about power estimates but your also wrong about how much serious racers are willing to spend to go faster.

blade0314

well now heres the graph everyone has been waiting for, Special thanks to Randy Owens aka Nah2b without him none of this would have been possible. Another thanks to Randy Schoener of Rs-tech very knowledgeable and knows his **** when it comes to tuning. Thanks also to my team Project-one theyve helped me out throughout the build as well.. felt good to finally drive the car after the year of building it.

Lets keep in mind this was in 90 degree heat and 70% humidity, well see the motors true power when i throw her back on the dyno in november in 40 degree weather and 0% humidity before WCF

AllMtrRex

Good power! Anticipating track times.
Nice to have Randy Owens and Randy Schoener in your corner.

blade0314

yeh deff a big advantage having them helping me out

656delta

Ladies and gents, as of late we have been receiving a lot of criticism on the Internet about the reverse-head build, how much it costs, why we did it, why our dyno numbers aren't very high, etc. Much of it is due to misinformation and ignorance, but we think a lot of it is just "Internet-engine-experts" trying to stick their web-chests out. To clear up the controversy I'm going to put together an FAQ. For those of you patrolling the forums, if you see anyone who's curious about our build, or has been jaded with misinformation, please send them here, or at least paste the link to our page. Here goes:

1) How much does this conversion cost?

A) From a bone stock H22 to the finished product expect to spend about $10,000. Most of that money will NOT be going to us. I'll say that again, since we have been accused of highway robbery (and we haven't even done this conversion for anyone yet); MOST OF YOUR MONEY WILL NOT BE GOING TO US. You will need an ITB set ($2000 and up for a decent one), a distributorless ignition system, an engine management system to run it all ($1500 and up), someone to tune it ($150 to $200 an hour), lots of machine-work ($2000 and up, depending on the condition of the engine you bring us), a lot of aircraft fittings and stainless-steel lines for the oil and VTEC system, an NBE head-gasket ($400; they are currently the ONLY company who makes them, and yes, I've already called Cometic about making one with no luck so far), fresh gaskets and bearings (about $250 for the entire engine), pistons and rings (because most customers who've brought us engines for ANY work have damaged ring-lands from poor tuning and abuse), aftermarket cam-gears ($150 and up), a custom header (this has to be fabricated with the engine in your car; expect to spend no less than $800 for decent work), rerouting of most of the engine's wiring, and rearranging the engine bay to accommodate everything in new locations. This doesn't even take into account if you want to use race-parts (hot cams, high-comp pistons, big valves, etc.). After all is said and done, we at FER will be lucky if we even see $1500 of your money for all of our labor, foot-work, and R&D. Obviously for those of you who can build your own engines, and have many of the parts already, the cost will be substantially lower. If you think we are trying to rip you off then we invite you to call ANY engine builder you can think of, and ask them what they'll charge you, and compare their cost to ours. This conversion isn't for the faint of heart.

2) Does reversing the head make power?

A) No. Absolutely none.

3) Then what is the purpose?

A) The original purpose was to allow the engines to be scooted all the way back against the firewalls of the British Super Touring Cars, while still allowing enough room for a 13" intake runner on each throttle. Our purpose for doing it was just to see if we could do it, try something new, it sounded like fun, and to showcase what we are capable of, because with a little ingenuity and determination, we believe that anything is possible.

4) Are there any benefits of doing this on a street car?

A) There is the potential for more power at speed, IF you properly duct air into the inlet system, and isolate it from the engine heat. Removing the heat-variable from the inlet is always beneficial, but it must be done correctly. Wind-tunnel testing will show that there are MANY ways to RAM air into a car's engine, but for most of you your car will never be traveling fast enough to benefit from that effect. The flip-side is that with the inlet properly isolated from the rest of the engine-bay, you will always get COOLER air, and any thermodynamacist worth his degree will tell you that this is beneficial for power-gains.

5) Is it worth the cost?

A) Only you can answer that one. With the invent of the K-series there are cheaper options for less money, but if you just want to be different than the crowd, then it's a good way to go. It sounds like a lot of money to spend just to add cool-factor to your ride, but if you've ever gone to a hard-parking meet (and there's nothing wrong with these, we go to) then you'll see equal amounts of money spent on dumber things, at least in our opinion.

6) Why are your dyno numbers only slightly above stock?

A) Our engine runs stock compression, cams, and valve diameters, and we haven't even finished phasing the cams with each other. In theory, when this particular build is finished, it won't make any more power than a BONE-STOCK H22 with throttle-bodies and a header, unless we are going fast and have the inlet isolated, which we haven't done yet.

7) This looks like an experiment that will only see hard-parking, and never driven hard. Will you ever do anything besides show it off?

A) Our van is anything but a hard-parker. We do attend meets and shows to spread our name around, however our van is driven every day, run hard through canyon roads, and taken on family road-trips to destinations hundreds of miles away, after being loaded down with gear and people. We don't build garage-queens. Our vehicles are meant to be driven.

8) Did you reverse the rotation?

A) No. It retains the factory Honda counter-clockwise rotation, which negates the need for custom cam-grinds. We only need to customize the cams of your choice to FIT in the head when it is reversed.

9) Why did you put it in a van, and not a lighter vehicle?

A) We love to drive our projects, but I have three kids, and had I put it in anything smaller than an Odyssey I would be lucky to drive it twice a month on a week-day. We love to drive our projects, and the only way to do that is to build them on platforms we can use daily. We love race-cars too, but the R&D required to do this would have taken many times longer, due to our lack of time to be able to go to the track and put the time in. We improvise, adapt, and overcome here at FER. Ask any of our customers who've come to us after being turned away by other techs, and they will attest to this motto.

10) Are you going to build another one, and will it make more power than the first one?

A) Most definitely on both counts! This first reverse-head H22 was merely a test-bed to see if we could make the conversion work, drive it on the street, and prove it reliable. Our next build will have higher compression, aftermarket cams, and maybe some head porting done. Our current reverse-head engine has used the same head for all five engine builds, and two of the combustion chambers have been welded on for repair after catastrophic engine failure. We believe that their may be hair-line cracks in the head (we've already repaired one), and we are done pushing our luck. This is also the reason why we didn't push the engine too hard on the dyno. We still need to drive on this engine until we can complete another one.

I hope this clears the air about what we've done, as well as the logistics and technicalities of the build. We have to be honest with that we never intended to do this as a service for our customers; it was just a fun experiment. However, now that we've had many requests for pricing and possible appointments to build them for others, we are working with our machinist to standardise the cost. Please keep in mind that this is very difficult for us to do, because of the varying conditions of engines we receive from customers, as well as the individual customer's needs as far as horse-power and drivability. And yes we know about the engineless Super Touring Accord for sale, and no we can't currently afford it right now, but we are willing to give a special deal to anyone who buys it and wants us to build a race-engine for it that is... period-correct. Have a nice day folks.

Tommy and Eddie

DougNuts

Because racevan.

fitseries3

seems like with all that work it may be a better option to use a 5axis cnc and mill a whole new head. then you could just drop all the parts in as you would a stock one.

bluehbcivic

h23a stock long block

intake oem ported by AHRacing
headers RMF replica custom downpipe for a real 2.5 collector
3.5" v-stack
3" exhaust

218whp 179wtq



I love that powerband

goinfast

If you look in my garage you will see what i have bought so far, its still all in pieces and will be put together here in the next month. Not sure what to expect for numbers but i just hope it will be fun to drive and play with on the streets.

656delta

It would be great to mill a new head, but the amount of math it would take to cut the ports and the VTEC passages would be way above my skill level. You're correct that what we did was a lot of work, and there are more cost-effective ways to make power, but it was an experiment that we've been wanting to try since `95, and we finally had enough spare parts laying around, and the extra time, to give it a shot.

bluehbcivic

bump, dont let this thread die

crazydominicanman

How difficult/expensive is it to get an H23 block to 200 ft-lbs of torque all motor guys?

Sleeper.SEDAN

if your not a stickler for the actually 200wtq number, you figure good bolt ons and a good amount of compression, cams that peak torque around 6k on that motor. figure it shouldnt be to hard.

infact most stock h23s ive street tuned and then went to the dyno did 170-180wtq.

then that guy up there did just post a dyno of a basic h23vtec making 175wtq lol.

bluehbcivic

I used bolt ons for high end power, short runners big plenum 75mm throttle headers rmf replica 4-1 2,5" choke point 3 inch exhaust
And it pushed 218whp 179wtq

dellas

H22A
Pro2 Cams
ITB
Header
Open Exhaust
Tuned on Neptune

242 WHP 170 WTQ

dellas

Here is the graph:

dellas

Stock H22A Euro-R
3inch stepped to 2.5 Intake
Stock Header
Stock 2 inch Exhaust with free flowing exhaust pan
Tuned with Neptune

186 WHP 148 LB/FT

Making good power for a highly restricted setup.

Pippen_001

Interesting..
Stock bottom end? What size ITB? On what fuel?

dellas

60mm ITB
11.5 CR pistons and rods
AV Gas

DarKStaR5

I posted in the big dyno thread but i will contribute in here..

H2B

87x95 oem bottom end with type s pistons and 2 layer HG
12.7:1cr
ported head, supertech vt
pro 2.5 cams
ported stock intake manifold
70mm omni tb
3.5"intake with vstack
logic header
rc750cc injectors
gsr transmission at time of tune, switched to b16 with 4.7fd right after
Tuned at Mainstream Performance on e85