Austin

Well…on Friday night Chris and I decided to pull the transmission on Saturday, and just re-install the HyTech header and exhaust on Friday night…it ended up that we should have pulled the transmission Friday night, after leaving Chris's House I made it ~2 miles before I lost all of my gears during a 6,000rpm 2-3 shift. I called my former roommate and she(works at a body shop) recommended a towing company right around the corner, one phone call and 5 minutes later(9:30pm) there was a flat bed pulling my car on up, and off we were…$40 cash later the car was being unloaded at Chris’s house. I had my old roommate pick me up and off for a night of drinking with a few friends…3 hours and 10oz of 80 proof liquor later I get dropped off at home and crashed out.

Parts installed in the transmission area:

JDM Final drive
Clutchnet Kush-loc clutch
ACT HD pressure plate, H0-25
Comptech Al flywheel

Chris picks me up ~3pm, we start pulling the transmission at ~4pm, have to remove the HyTech header to get to some bolts…we get the transmission pulled and the clutch disc looks great…uh, oh…it’s gotta be something else I’m a little worried here, I notice that the pressure plate has 1 finger that's very slightly bent:



Full size, cut and paste:

http://www.imagestation.com/pi...g.jpg



Full Size, cut and paste:
http://www.imagestation.com/pi...g.jpg

Here's a picture of the friction surface of the Pressure Plate:



Full size, cut and paste:
http://www.imagestation.com/pi...g.jpg

So here we are wondering what in the hell it could be…we notice that the flywheel friction surface is nice and shinny, most likely from me slipping the clutch in 2nd gear for the last week ~300+ miles, so we make a trip down to the local hardware store and buy some sand paper, scuff it up a little bit…then realize that we also need to replace the pilot bearing, it makes clicking noises as you turn it, luckily Chris has an extra one sitting around…odd, but lucky for us.

I call Louie to ask his thoughts since we were speaking on it earlier in the week…and Louie’s a automotive technician, so he might know better than me. As I’m going through what we find, and how it looks I go to grab the clutch through the hole for the transmission’s Input Shaft…odd, that doesn’t feel right…uhhh…Louie I found out what the problem is, Chris take a look…here’s what I found:



Full size, cut and paste:
http://www.imagestation.com/pi...g.jpg



Full size, cut and paste:
http://www.imagestation.com/pi...g.jpg


You can see in this picture at the far end of the shaft connection where thereÂ’s a lip, thatÂ’s whatÂ’s left of the splines that connect to the Input Shaft:



Full size, cut and paste:
http://www.imagestation.com/pi...g.jpg


As you can see in these pictures below the friction surface is perfectly fine other than a little hazing from the recent 2nd gear starts:



Full size, cut and paste:
http://www.imagestation.com/pi...g.jpg



Full size, cut and paste:
http://www.imagestation.com/pi...g.jpg

After finding our problem Chris and I went back to installing the flywheel, ACT Street Strip clutch and we thought ACT Heavy Duty pressure plate, I’ll get to that later. Well…after 4 hours we had everything up and the car started, damn this pressure plate is stronger, this is a lot of pedal pressure…Chis had to agree with me, but he liked it…hmmm…flashback to a memory of seeing a little number on the pressure plate… H-015X, X…that might be for Xtreme…damn it’s not the Heavy Duty, it’s the extreme pressure plate…but I have to thank Mike Marsey aka RBoosted717 for the slightly used freebies, I’m not going to complain.

I called up Clutchnet on Monday morning, the technician blamed the ACT pressure plate, stating that the clutch and pressure plate were an integral until that were designed to work together, and that it looks like the splines gave way because the disc and pressure plate had too much clamping force…I told him that it was a very light duty pressure plate and I would have understood it if I had gone to a pressure plate like the Xtreme from ACT, but not from their Heavy Duty, which is only a slight increase in the clamping forces…I need to send it back to them, they’ll make me a new one(like I’ll use it and pull the tranny again unless I have to), there was some brief talk of refund…but the tech told me to talk to the customer service guy, since he didn’t handle that part of the business.

Here is what the car was like leading up to the failure:

Immediately after installing this clutch a year ago I noticed a chattering noise when the clutch pedal wasn’t pushed in, and the car was idling, once you pushed the clutch pedal in it went away. The noise did get slightly louder, but wasn’t that bad. Then over the last month 1st gear has been a little difficult to get into gear when the car is not at a complete stop, no real problem, just need to make sure that I’m stopped to get it into gear.

Last weekend I’m driving through San Francisco and whenever I attempt to put the car into 1st gear it grinds, I can force it into gear…but

Here is what I found:

Car running:
grinds going into 1st gear
a little resistance going into any of the gears

Driving car:
1st gear is the same
as long as I shift without a delay it goes right into gear
if I take my time between shifts I get some resistance going into gear

Car <u>not</u> running
shifts like butter no problems at all

My thoughts were that the clutch ws having an issue, maybe something came loose, a rivet came undone, who knows…I just thought that there was a problem with the clutch.

After doing some more research I remembered that Steve Sakai aka sgt had a problem with his clutch at itrEXPO2, after searching here’s what I found… https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=197279 same damn thing that happened to me


Cliff Notes:

Lost all gears, pulled transmission, clutch was missing all the teeth that connect to the input shaft splines, pressure plate had one slightly bent finger, replaced them with a used ACT SS disc and ACT Xtreme pressure plate(that we thought was a heavy Duty pressure plate), free parts provided from RBoosted717. Car runs fine now, called Clutchnet and they blamed the ACT pressure plate, offered to replace the disc.

Thank you Chris for helping me do this, I couldn't have done it without you.

Damn that was a long post…but hopefully this doesn't happen to someone else

Austin


Modified by Austin at 11:34 AM 12/9/2003

IGGY

Looks worse in person. I like the replacement though.

chad

after 40k miles, 300 drag launches, 25 plus track weekends and countless street racing, my act did the same thing...luckily i pulled it out before i was stranded!!

Smitdog

Very Interesting. I have had the same chattering noise when the clutch in not pressed in at a stop with the car in nuetral, push the clutch in and the noise stops, push the clutch in and let it out slowly, the chattering is not as loud.

After talking to many people and letting many people such as SGT and other well known "tech's", I came to the conclusion that is was my MainShaft Bearings inside the case. Also when talking with D I was told he had "about" the same noise, and it did end up being his bearings.
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=646461

I have the ACT Extreme PP.. mated with the Street/Strip Disc and a Fidanza Flywheel.

I was convinced it was my mainshaft bearings that were slowly going bad like D's did. I have not been hard on my car at all and b/c of the weather and time of year do not drive it that much at all. therefore I have not dropped the tranny yet to look. I am hoping to drop it very soon and see if this could be the problem with mine. It would be nice in a way. Then I do not need to open the Case( my tranny never has grinded or had difficulty shifting at any RPM ever).

- Very interested to look now!


Modified by Smitdog at 2:22 PM 12/9/2003

Austin

The clicking at idle went away as soon as we installed the new parts. Bob#455 installed the same combination over the summer, and has the same clicking noise that I had at idle.

Austin

Chris

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Austin &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Bob#455 installed the same combination over the summer, and has the same clicking noise that I had at idle.

Austin</TD></TR></TABLE>

also the same 1st gear issues.... not really wanting to go in easily.

Big Phat R

Gremlins suck!

RTW DC2R

I didnt have a spline problem like that, but your pressure plate looks a lot like my HyperClutch does. I dont have another pressure plate, so I had to put it back in. Sucks but still driveable. What makes the pressure plate have bent fingers?? I was told its not a problem with the pressure plate and was probably caused by improper install, clutch type, driving habits, etc I gave up on trying to get a new clutch from them.

J_Edwards

That sucks. Also sucks that their customer service blamed other parts when it seemed likely it was their product that failed.

Big to the HT peeps coming together once again to help out a fellow member. Good times.

JON

Kicker773

so really quick question.. is it a good thing to have an hd/ss combination or would you prefer an xt/ss combo???

Austin

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Kicker773 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">so really quick question.. is it a good thing to have an hd/ss combination or would you prefer an xt/ss combo??? </TD></TR></TABLE>

If I had the choice I would be running a HD/SS over the XT/SS, but I have what I have, I just wont be using a Clutchnet product again.

Austin

Black R

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Austin &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
You can see in this picture at the far end of the shaft connection where there’s a lip, that’s what’s left of the splines that connect to the Input Shaft.....

.....After finding our problem Chris and I went back to installing the flywheel, ACT Street Strip clutch and we thought ACT Heavy Duty pressure plate, IÂ’ll get to that later. WellÂ…after 4 hours we had everything up and the car started, damn this pressure plate is stronger, this is a lot of pedal pressureÂ…Chis had to agree with me, but he liked itÂ…hmmmÂ…flashback to a memory of seeing a little number on the pressure plateÂ… H-015X, XÂ…that might be for XtremeÂ…damn itÂ’s not the Heavy Duty, itÂ’s the extreme pressure plateÂ…but I have to thank Mike Marsey aka RBoosted717 for the slightly used freebies, IÂ’m not going to complain. </TD></TR></TABLE>




I like the ACT 6-puck + XT PP. I'm glad you got that one.

Bad news for j00 though - my buddy also ripped all the splines out of his act 6-puck with the xt pp..... After like 500 miles. So no disc is perfect.

I've been using an action clutch in my itr powered hatch, and no problems.

I may go to an act 6-puck + xt pp in the near future though.....

Nick248

The "chattering" that you hear is not a bearing of any kind. What you are hearing is the torsional vibrations vibrating the springs on the clutch disc. A stock (heavier) flywheel normally absorbs most of that vibration but because we replaced the stock flywheel with a lighter one, the vibration is more prominent.

Why didn't we hear it when the clutch was new?? The clutch springs weren't "broken in". After weeks of use, the springs and/or the spring seats(??) collapse very little.

I've had this "chatter" for quite some time now with no problems at all. Shifting is fine and grips like new.

-Nick

Austin

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Nick248 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The "chattering" that you hear is not a bearing of any kind. What you are hearing is the torsional vibrations vibrating the springs on the clutch disc. A stock (heavier) flywheel normally absorbs most of that vibration but because we replaced the stock flywheel with a lighter one, the vibration is more prominent.

Why didn't we hear it when the clutch was new?? The clutch springs weren't "broken in". After weeks of use, the springs and/or the spring seats(??) collapse very little.

I've had this "chatter" for quite some time now with no problems at all. Shifting is fine and grips like new.

-Nick</TD></TR></TABLE>

I think that sounds logical and would agree...except if you look at the clutch there isn't a spring present...it's an unsprung clutch disc...

Austin

RineRacing

Thanks for posting this Austin.

I was going to be ordering one of those disks on YOUR recomendation but not any more.

Did you weigh the ACT disk in comparison to the CN disk? Can you tell a difference when driving?

Austin

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Geratol &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Thanks for posting this Austin.

I was going to be ordering one of those disks on YOUR recomendation but not any more.

Did you weigh the ACT disk in comparison to the CN disk? Can you tell a difference when driving?</TD></TR></TABLE>

It feels like the ACT disc is ~3X as heavy, I have the Clutchnet disc and ACT pressure plate in my trunk, so I'll try to remember to weigh it when I'm at DynoSpot on Friday.

There is a difference in how the car revs while in neutral, and when I'm rev matching, takes a slightly bigger blip to get the clutch at the RPM I want, but it also stays there longer. Excluding the pressure plate and it's newly added heavy pedal pressure, I really can't tell much of a difference from the different clutch discs. You're more than welcome to take the car out for a spin again when I see you so that you can check out the clutch/pressure plate/flywheel combination.

I'm sad to say that it was the disc that failed, and that the company is blaming another part, but it to me it's a rather unusual failure that I suffered. Up until the failure I would have still recommended the clutch disc, however I can no longer feel comfortable making a recommendation to anyone to use a single Clutchnet product.

Austin

JDogg

i cant stand clutchnet....... every one i have ever driven drove like *** and had no feel and shitty enguagement

ACTman

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RTW DC2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What makes the pressure plate have bent fingers?? I was told its not a problem with the pressure plate and was probably caused by improper install, clutch type, driving habits, etc </TD></TR></TABLE>Remember that it doesn't matter how crooked the fingers are when the clutch isn't bolted down. It only matters when the clutch is mounted and torqued down. It is really hard to bend fingers unless you manhandle the parts when you install them. A pressure plate can get debris caught between the diaphragm fingers and the cover and look like this when it is not bolted down and then be perfectly fine once it is bolted down.

Smitdog

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ACTman &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Remember that it doesn't matter how crooked the fingers are when the clutch isn't bolted down. It only matters when the clutch is mounted and torqued down. It is really hard to bend fingers unless you manhandle the parts when you install them. A pressure plate can get debris caught between the diaphragm fingers and the cover and look like this when it is not bolted down and then be perfectly fine once it is bolted down. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I am having the same problem with the XT-SS setup on my ITR. Is there reasoning for this to be happening to the disc spline. I am about to replace my Disc so that the chattering goes away.

Do you suggest I go with another Street/Strip Disc that ACT offers or trying something else. I do not want to have this happen again anytime soon.

-Steve S

ACTman

In all fairness to ClutchNet, there is not much ClutchNet could do to prevent this type of failure on a solid center disc. Their spring centered disc wouldn't have this type of failure. The problem is that any solid disc has nothing to dampen the torsional vibrations of the engine. The constant hammering wears the splines prematurely. It is aggrevated by the aluminum flywheel because a heavy stock flywheel helps to dampen out some of this vibration. Honestly, we have similar problems with our race discs since they are solid center but they are not intended for high mileage. They won't last forever but there are tradeoffs to springs too. If we added springs the spline wear improves, but chatter gets worse, more things to go wrong, and shifting is slower. For racing I would choose solid.

Obviously it wasn't the pressure plate's problem. I know the guys are ClutchNet, and it is not their habit to blame our parts so I think you talked to the wrong guy (they let the wrong guy answer you). The funny thing is that if you used this ClutchNet disc on a V8 Chevy it would probably last for years since a V8 has much less torsional vibration and a heavy flywheel.

To those that posted such nice comments about ACT: Thanks for your faith in our products.

Smitdog

I am very impressed with ACT products and made the mistake of not going with ACT when replacing clutches in the past.

I am just curious to know, if I have the same wear and have the sprung non-puck disc why is this happening also on this disc?

What would u suggest i use for a replacement disc?

ACT always gets a huge !

RTW DC2R

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Nick248 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The "chattering" that you hear is not a bearing of any kind. What you are hearing is the torsional vibrations vibrating the springs on the clutch disc. A stock (heavier) flywheel normally absorbs most of that vibration but because we replaced the stock flywheel with a lighter one, the vibration is more prominent.

Why didn't we hear it when the clutch was new?? The clutch springs weren't "broken in". After weeks of use, the springs and/or the spring seats(??) collapse very little.

I've had this "chatter" for quite some time now with no problems at all. Shifting is fine and grips like new.

-Nick</TD></TR></TABLE>

From what I was told regarding my clutch problems, chatter can also be created by the type of flywheel and clutch pad materials used. Different combinations of clutch disks and flywheels "bite" harder than others and can enhance chatter greatly.

Suprdave

I've personally never had good luck with anything clutchnet...thats me personally tho.