RigaTony

I am sure this has been talked about before, but every topic I have read about this issue it seems to be something different than my problem. That, or I have no idea what I am doing in terms of tackling this electrical problem.

Car Info: Teg GSR 96, Aftermarket Alarm, Intake, Exhaust, Headers. 236k miles. Generally no out of the ordinary problems. Hatchback model.

Day One: I was driving around during the morning taking care of some things when I parked the car at home. A few hours later when leaving for work I shift into reverse and start to back out when I ease off the clutch too much and it stalls. Has happened to me before.. No big deal. Well this time it won't start back up. I try numerous times.

Following: To keep a long story short I now know the fuse 24, 15amp, will blow immediately upon turning the ignition to II/On. Reading various info on many sites and guides I have unplug all the connectors I could find and still attempted to check the fuse but it still blows. The only time the fuse DOES not blow is when the green connector directly behind the fuse/SRS Block is not plugged in. I checked all the wires on that connector using a multimeter checking resistance and if I am reading my results correctly, a friend believes that I am(he is a lot better with wiring than I am), the Pink/Blue, Green, Green/Red, Red/Green, and Pink/Black(not 100% on the colors of the last one) are all shorting somewhere.

I know Fuse 24 protects the Black/Yellow, but none of those components seem to be causing the problems. I even tried a new ECM/ECU, but no luck. Even with the ECM unplugged its blowing. Without removing the entire dash I have examined the wires by the main harness the best I can and I don't see any wire damage. I have completely unplugged my Alarm system. All the splices seem to be stable. The Alarm is the only thing I didn't install. It was installed when I bought it. I have already changed the ignition switch not long ago, and the voltages on that check out.

Is there anyone who can at least give me out of the box advice on this? Its been months and I really miss my integra. Its getting to the point where I may have to just sell it, but I am stubborn. I asked a shop about it and they said it would be $65 an hour until they can find the problem. I don't really like that solution. Any help/comments will be appreciated as long as they can push this investigation forward.

Ask any questions you may have in the case I missed anything. Thanks in advance.

1998GsRIntegra

Where is FCM when you need him. Sigh

Murk 'EM

Well i don't have the diagram in front of me but what you need to do is check every ground related to your issue.. Check every wire splice and connector.. Do this by using your dvom on ohms and check the continuity in the wires.. When you find the one that doesnt have continuity start tracing go back every splice and plug and check till you find your problem.. Remember tho you should unplug/unhook the wire so that your testing only that/those wires
Good luck

wrx-killer-Sti-eater

iTrader: (1)

If I remember right, that fuse is tied into the vss. Check the connections there to make sure its not a problem. The vss and fuel pump to share a circuit toghter. I seen the vss pop the fuel pump fuse when it goes bad.

RigaTony

Actually the VSS is the only part(relating to the fuse) that I am not sure if I have tested. I have been having trouble locating it. Even with the help of the haynes and another service manual I have found. I have read that its near the transmission. Is that true? As far as tracing that wire. I have been having a lot of trouble getting leverage up near the main harness at the top left of the driver firewall area. Once I get the dash out I may have luck with that. I am just afraid that I will take all that apart only to find its not those wires. Honestly at that point I will be stuck.

fcm

I would start by unplugging the PGM-FI Main Relay if fuse still blows unplug the VSS. let us know what you find. 94

PS My wiring diagram indicates a 20A fuse for fuse 24 in GS-Rs and a 15A for RS/LS.
Besides power for the fuel pump, injector relay coil and VSS, fuse 24 is also power for the charge indicator light and CC Unit and CC on/off switch. 94

RigaTony

The Main Relay is unplugged. No success there. That was one of the biggest recommendations to try first. In all the documents I have found it indicates that 24 is a 20 in a GS-R, but in my car its a 15 and it has been working for years as a 15. Just to be sure I did try a 20 in that slot but it blew just as quickly as the 15. One of the documents I read gave hint to the 20amp only being placed in the 95 model GS-R, but I do not know for sure.

I have also unplugged the Cruise Control unit, Cruise ON/OFF, then entire instrument panel. I have also tested all of these for shorts. They appear to be fine. I will try and work with the VSS tomorrow. Will I need to have the car on jacks to get to it?

bosoxcelts86

my 95 gsr did the same thing for awhile check all grounds for being loose or rusted

fcm

Sorry, I did not mean the problem was the 15A fuse, a 15A fuse that blows "immediately", is blowing because of a dead short or massive overload, that would also blow a 20A fuse.

As mentioned, if you have not already check the grounds, in fact I would disconnect them, clean the contact surfaces, reconnect.
When a number of circuits are grounded at one point and that ground "lifts" goes bad, some or all of the loads on those circuits would be "seen" by that 15A/20A fuse, bad ground can blow fuses just as fast as a dead short.

I am going to have to look up the wiring diagram and fuse box on Alldata.

You said, "I know Fuse 24 protects the Black/Yellow" and you know it's not the components, if it is a short it could be the wire [black/yellow] not the component.

Have you done a continuity check to chassis ground on the black/yellow?
Could the last one, "(not 100% on the colors of the last one)" be black/yellow?94

RigaTony

All the wires I checked that seem to have a short are from the green connector on the back side of the fuse panel under the dash. The black/yellow on that same connector tested ok when testing for resistance. The last wire that I am unsure about is either a pink/black or red/black. Definitely not the black/yellow. And I am still not sure if I have tested the VSS. Should I just test every ground I see or should I pin point anywhere?

I can check the service manual I have. It seems to layout a lot of the grounds fairly well. Excuse my novice knowledge, especially for terms, but when you say continuity what do you mean? How would I test for that?

mark@silbernage

Continuity simply means that electricity runs through it; closer to zero (0) ohms resistance is best. It means whatever goes into one end gets to the other and very little is 'lost'. There are several ways to test a path through the wire harness, connectors, etc.

You can use a voltmeter set to DC (direct current) and on a range that is 15V or more and it will tell you if there is electricity there from, for example, the battery. A good battery with everything in the car turned off should read about 12.6VDC (volts, DC). Radio Shack or maybe Tru-Value sells some inexpensive volt / ohm meters.

If you have the battery disconnected (as I hope is true in your case) because of a short, you set the meter on Ohms (has that greek letter Omega often), and on a scale of maybe 10 Ohms. You expect some resistance in wire, and connectors, but wire that has cooked will have a higher resistance (maybe double digits or more). Fried connectors will do that too. Of course, if it is cut or broken completely you'll show nothing, same as when the probes on the meter aren't touching. Touch the probes together, and it should read close to zero ohms. Put something in between (wire) and whatever it reads above zero is the resistance value of that particular stretch of wire, connectors, etc.

Don't use the meter on Ohms with any circuit that has power, it could fry the meter; i.e. disconnect the battery until you're pretty sure what you're doing.

Voltage from the wall, by the way, is alternating current and typically (but not always) 120V. Most meters can measure that too - my point is only to match the meter to what you are measuring and be careful not to overload it. Fortunately, for what you need they're cheap!

You'll get a feeling pretty quick, from looking at good wires and connectors, what a bad one looks like.

That help?

Mark

fcm

To test for shorts to either ground or other wires use the continuity setting on you meter
normally between the diode test and the first ohms setting on your meter, it is the setting that the meter will "beep" when the meter probes are touched together and meter will read 000, meaning you have continuity, [a connection].

Set meter to continuity, place one meter probe to chassis ground the other probe to the wire your testing, the meter should read no continuity, [no connection] the lead you are testing can not be connected to a load or source, [wire must be disconnected at both "ends"] EG; you can not test the black/yellow going to the PGM-FI Main Relay for continuity to ground if black/yellow is still connected to the relay, you will read the ground on the other side of the load.

Because fuse 24, [black/yellow] is connected to a number of loads, [CC, PGM-FI Main Relay, VSS, charge indicator light and possibly others] all the loads must be disconnected.

I am a little confused, you said you had not disconnected the VSS but when you tested the black/yellow lead on the green plug it was OK, "The black/yellow on that same connector tested OK when testing for resistance" with the VSS connected there should have been resistance, test that black/yellow for continuity to ground.

I will check at work today to see what else is on fuse 24. 94

RigaTony

Thanks for the input, Mark. Thats pretty much what I had been taught/told as far as testing the wires. I already have a cheap Multimeter and I have been testing the wires for the resistance, but I haven't tried the beeping test.

When my meter detects no resistance (probes not touching) the meter displays "1". So I was under the assumption along with the input of my friend I mentioned earlier, that if it displays a 1 then the wire is good/has no short(unless I am testing a grounding wire, of course). As long as the ignition is set to off. Under these conditions the Black/Yellow has tested with a 1 or no connection.

Please keep in mind I have completely disconnected the ecu connectors and almost all of the fuse connectors excluding the ignition connectors and a couple in the back of the fuse panel. One of which I believe is called the integrated controller or something along those lines. Almost every connector under/behind the steering wheel is disconnected when running these tests. Should I link the ECU back up to get better results?

Hopefully this is a better explanation. My friend and I are gonna go back to the car after we eat. Probably be there in an hour or so. I will keep checking this site on my phone. Thanks for all the help so far.

Murk 'EM

Put everything back together.. Your not gonna find your problem with it apart.. Like i said its very simple check the continuity of the wires your testing when you find the one that's open (or 1 in your case for you meter) back track the wire till you have continuity that will tell you that you have an open some where behind that point.. Then you move your lead to the other side of the wire and keep checking for continuity.. When you find the section of wire where your meter displays "1" or open you found your issue then you need to locate the open or short and repair it

RigaTony

I wasn't able to stop by the car today, but I will definitely try plugging everything back up and taking it one step at a time. Starting with the VSS. I will also be checking the grounds.

94VTEC2TONE

an open will not pop a fuse thats for sure. This sounds like a massive pain in the *** my friend. i would be looking for a short to ground imo. which means anything before the load or multiple loads, if unplugging this done work id be opening a loom or checking for rub marks on something. maybe its your alarm

Murk 'EM

My first guess was something to so with the alarm

fcm

Are you ready for this.

Fuse 24 powers a shitload of things...
SRS unit.
ICU a common problem part.
CC switch and control unit
2nd O2 sensor.
PGM-FI Main Relay injector relay control and fuel pump power.
TCM automatic only.
Alt. exciter and charge ind. light.
VSS
ELD [USDM only] and another part **** to problems.

There are three (3) black/yellow outputs from the fuse box on fuse 24, one is kind of internal, to ICU the other two are on plugs to the fuse box, [one on green plug].

Sorry, AllData does not show plugs

Murk 'EM

All data should in the connector view

fcm

Apparently, not the cheap basic version we have.

I will have a look and see if I can ID the black/yellow in the green plug and see what loads are on that lead to narrow it down a bit. 94

RigaTony

Well, I let you guys down. I broke down and towed the car to Acura. Outside of a semi-bad experience they got the car turning over. The ignition switch seemed to be the reason for the fuse blowing, and the o2 sensor had a cut in the wire and a hole blow out the side of the bottom portion. From what I could tell, the wire got cut form the heat shield which shorted the ignition switch which was causing the fuse to blow. Lesson learned lol, wrap that o2 sensor well next time!

So now I need a new o2 sensor, new cat converter, and new spark plugs(I think unrelated). The short on the wiring of the o2 also damaged the cat. Acura said parts of the cat's internals blew out my exhaust. Just wanted to update everyone and let them know for future incidences. I checked the o2 sensor, but I didn't feel any wire damage. I should have removed it. I still wouldn't have caught the ignition switch, though. I replaced it not too long ago, so I ignorantly passed it as a suspect.

I did have another question. I have not been able to find this elusive 2nd o2 sensor for the life of me. The one I need is the one that is installed very close or directly into the cat. Where is the other one? I have heard its in the headers, but I am pretty sure my aftermarket headers had no socket for it. Thanks again for everyone helps before. Its good to know all my wiring is ok.

spec22

There should be one in the collector of the header, the other one is in the cat on the far end. At least thats what mine looks like. Did you put the header on yourself?

RigaTony

Yeah I installed it myself. Its a DC sport 4 - 1 ceramic header.