Right now I have Bilstein Sport shocks and H&R Sport springs. The car is too low. I want new springs and spring rates in addition to ride height adjustment for corner weighting. Ideally I'd get a set of true coilovers, but for now I'm going the cheapest route and just adding Groundcontrol sleeves and Eibach springs to my Bilsteins (they're fairly new and I love them). I called Groundcontrol about spring rates and the guy there was pretty clueless. So I called Truechoice and they'll sell me a set of GCs and spring rates of my choice. The guy there was competent and agreed with me that to reduce understeer I should go with a higher spring rate in the rear than in the front. He suggested 400F/450R (9" Eibachs) to go with my Bilsteins. [Urbanlegend21 runs 300F/350R phase 2 Truechoice (Koni coilovers) on his 94 Accord]. Also suggested to me was 375F/425R, and that sounds good. These higher spring rates compensate for the heavier H22 engine and the greater amount of velocity it creates. Since probably not even a tenth of my mileage in this car is spent on the track, I'd prefer a comfortable ride to all-out track handling (this is why I bought the Bilsteins).
So I want a daily driver with a firm yet forgiving ride with spring rates chosen to reduce understeer. I'm also adding a 21mm rear sway bar to help rotation when desired. Anyone have any suggestions, input, or experiences?
Thanks.

 

I'm not relying solely on springs. My shocks are non adjustable and I'm adding a 60% thicker rear sway bar. The average car understeers because the rear springs are softer than the fronts. The front springs have a higher spring rate to deal with the engine mass. The schmoes that have put their springs on backwards have found the cheap way to provoke oversteer, a stiffer rate in the back. Yes, the ride is very strange now with a sensation that the car's rear is a trampoline, but I'm willing to accept at least that penalty in ride comfort.
In an FF car, bumping up the rear spring rate will reduce understeer.
See http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/racepres.htm. It says soften the front and stiffen the rear to decrease understeer.

Anyways, to compensate for the extra pounds of the H22, I think I'll go with 375 in the front. Now if I wanted my car to handle like it's tuned, safe, with understeer, I'd go lighter in the back. But no, I want to reduce understeer, so stiffer in the back than the front. Get it? So if I've got 375 in the front I want to go higher than that for the rear, right? So let's say 425 in the rear. 425 is greater than 375. Still with me? Just this setup alone will make the car rotate. Add the thicker rear sway bar, and it should rotate nicely.
I'm just not sure which rates to go with.

PS, corner weighting has nothing to do with weights, it's adjusting coilovers' height so that each corner exerts the same force to the ground. Nor do I drag race. Just Autox and closed circuit road courses.

Any more opinions (from someone else) would really be appriciated, thanks.


[Modified by 4doorH22, 10:02 PM 10/15/2001]

 

Well you were wrong on everything about the spring rates and you're wrong on me about reading Super Street too.

 

Listen, kid. I come here for information. You're not helping. If you continue to respond to this (smackdown squad heavyweight) that just makes you a dick. I don't want to play your foolish games. I just want some information.

 

Maybe this will help. To maintain a confortable and controlled ride, you usually run more tire pressure in your front tires than in your rear on a FWD car. I am sure this is on the inside driver's door jam of your Accord. More pressure in the tire is like a poor man's way of using a stiffer spring.
When I go to the track, I want to back end to be stiffer so it will rotate on me. Or at the strip so it will not squat as much. So at that point, I run more air pressure in the rear tires.
The stiffer the rear, the more tail wag you get. Not sure on the Accord, but for the Integra, Skunk2 runs 100 pounds more of spring in the front than the rear...
Maybe that, without sounding harsh, will help explain what everyone is trying to relay to you...

Jason

 

Actually, in general for FF cars, most have said lower pressure in the rear is better for reducing understeer. Yes, lower pressure in rear, something about slip angles, increase oversteer, less understeer. I just need a good starting spring rate. I already run the courses at 42F/36R and the tail comes out a bit. I want more lift throttle and trailing throttle oversteer for the corners. Stiffer springs in the back will accomplish that.
At least you do agree with me that the rear must be stiffened!


[Modified by 4doorH22, 11:25 PM 10/15/2001]

 

Whats your deal man.. He asked for help.. Pretty much everything you said was wrong, so Ignore him Dave...

 

Yeah Corey. Anyways where are the competition people? Now I'm thinking your other suggestion of 400 all around would be a good balance. With the weight up front and the stiffness and sway bar in the rear it'll certainly be more apt to rotate. Right now with the H&R Sports it's soft up front and even softer in the rear. Handling is neutral with understeer at the limit, just like every other boxed set of springs.

 

Even if you weren't ignorant, and actually spewed out correct information, you're still an *******.

4door: Unless you have a large amount of experience, I would ask some of the class leaders at your local autoX for their suggestions. As an example, I'm going to install 375/375 or possibly 375/400 GCs depending on how the car feels when I get around to installing Progress bar. I also have H&R Sports.

Another point is the fastest cars at the track have the most neutral handling. Loads of oversteer can be a handful especially on decreasing radius turns. The fastest way around a turn is with all 4 wheels gripping.

 

Dave, no matter what, a FWD car is going to ultimately push. You're never going to fully eliminate understeer. You can increase power off oversteer with fiddling with spring rates and roll bars, but at full throttle, it's always going to push.

Loco, I don't understand why you're having trouble understanding someone needing to compensate for a heavier drivetrain and improving the balance... It's a paradox, but there's always going to be a "right" combination. He's right about the boys at Ground Control. They are not the brightest when it comes to recommending rates. I know this first hand, as my first set I chose with their help. Hmmm....450f/350r on a '99 Civic, and I had told them it's for autocross. Well, let me start by saying that it was a lot stiffer than the stock springs (of course). It also pushed on, straight ahead, and would not rotate for ****. I ended up buying new ERSs (springs) after doing research on the various boards as to what the fast guys were doing. Well, my new combo made me a lot faster, and the car was much easier to drive at the limit (380f/450r). And although I'm slightly hispanic, it doesn't ride like my uncles lowered Toyota Corona. That extra weight up front is such a small factor when you consider the inertia of the entire car at speed. That's why that engine swap won't have that big of an effect on the balance and it's my belief that you won't have to change the spring rates too much for an H powered Accord over that with F power. Trust the folks at Truechoice, and don't even bother to read a word of the **** from Loco Honkey's keyboard. This guy obviously tries to start arguements because he's so ridiculously bored of "smacking folks down" in the Kills forum that he had to come over to tech, and "beat up on" someone with a legitimate question. Completely asanine.

 

Absolutely! That's what I'm doing right now. All the fastest guys on the road courses in my area participate on this board.

 

i can't believe this guy is telling you that he knows more than the people that build spring setups for many of the top SCCA drivers and IRL league drivers along with your top prosolo autocrossers. They know what they arte talking about because they take the time to know what you are running on your car and plan on running. I run 300f/350r with Koni yellows..... but I also have a ST rear Sway bar and front strut bar. Which also makes a big difference. Dave if these people sell you crap then they don't do good business, they use a lot of word of mouth among racers to get their product advertised.

 

Sounds like Truechoice was pretty reasonable about the rates. If your car was more of a dedicated autoxer/road racer, I would consider going with even higher rates out back relative to front. Seems like the "average" good setup (if there is one) is about a 2f/3r ratio between front and rear spring rates. In other words, 400/600 or 300/450, etc.

Also, I wouldn't play down the performance potential of a set of GC's and ERS's. There's many a national champ out there on exactly that combination. As for Tein HA's, etc., take the $700 you saved by going with GC's and invest in a racing school. Then you will be (literally) miles ahead.

Another word of advice is to talk to the guys on the competition forum. That's the best place for suspension setup questions IMO. There are a lot of very experienced racers there, plus they would have a field day with Loco's forum spooge...

 

yeah i didn't mean to sound like that was the only choice out there, they're are many others that will do the job. I just wanted to make the point that Truechoice must have an idea what they are talking about if they get the support of those type of people.
Also when I ordered mine they took the time to ask me exactly what I was intending for my car to do and where I planned on the car being in about a year. With our cars though(Accords) the heavier the spring rate the more of a chance on needing revalved shocks/struts is isn't it? That was the impression I had. I drive almost 100 miles to work eveyday and my setup is wonderful. But if you tend to race more than a stiffer spring rate will suit you fine. FSP31 is right the best answers for this question will be in the competition forum. But Dave you have already seen and know what my car does opn the track.

 

WIth my setup, sorry I dont know the spring rates, the car handles very neutral on and in partial throttle. During the last autox, first one with the gc's, I spun twice, same spots on the course, hard breaking plus turning=spinning. I have even felt the rear starting to step out during some spirited driving. I can get the spring numbers for you but I dont know where to find the coresponding pound rates for those numbers. All in all I am very happy with the gc's and would recomend them bc of the options in different rates in the future.

 

Thanks all.
I did indeed post in the competition form, with a link to this thread.
I think 350F/400R should be it.
I'll place my order soon unless I get some more input in the next hour or so.
THanks again!

 

I think most of us will disagree.

Man, you really must have the brain of an inchworm if this is confusing you.

Relative to a stock Accord, Dave's front is heavy and requires a bit more spring. But, in order to balance the car, the rear should be stiffer. This is pretty fundamental tuning on a FWD car. Look at the SVWC and GrandAm cars - all run super stiff rear springs AND giant swaybars. Often exceeding 1000lb/in and 26mm.

You can fine tune all you want, but if the car is undersprung, handling will suffer.

I think RealTime and all the other pro teams would disagree.

That would be because they put 400lb/in springs on a stock shock and then lowered the car 3 inches.

Luckily for us, your bullshit isn't blinding.

Why not, it's easy and it makes a significant difference on inherently unbalanced sedans. If you're too dumb/lazy/stupid to do this, I'll just beat you by that much more.

Nobody ever made this assertion.

I do believe that is why he posted. You're not helping. Go find a good ***** - sounds like you need a good lay. Or maybe a bran muffin.

 

Well just an FYI I went with 350F/400R 9" ERSs on adjustable perches/sleeves. The Truechoice guy is cool. If that doesn't work out individual springs are $60 each and that's not too bad.

I don't normally like to be rude, but I have to be honest...
Loco Honkey has not only just proven himself to be an ignorant a-hole, but posts like this https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=58317 demonstrate him to be a true idiot as well.

Congratulations on humiliating yourself, Dipshit.

 

>>Well just an FYI I went with 350F/400R 9" ERSs on adjustable perches/sleeves.<<

What kind of sleeves did you go with? According to someone I spoke with at truechoice, they don't sell Ground Control.

 

They're not Ground Control sleeve, really, but it's the same thing. I spoke with Dave and they're actually their Koni sleeves made to fit the Bilsteins somehow. I'm sure I'll see it when he gets 'em as I'll be helpin' out with the installation.

 

Yup, they're Koni threaded sleeves. The Truechoice guy said they're exactly like the GC sleeves, but longer. The locking collar is exactly the same. Well I just hope everything works with the Bilstein shock.