Ok, I just did a timing belt install on my 95 Integra GS and ran into an issue after I put it all back together. I tore it down twice and actually redid it once to ensure that it's all correct.

What happens is i will start the engine cold, and the motor will run fine. Turning the dizzy (just learned that term today), I can hit the 16 degree mark just fine. However, gradually the timing will retard more and more, until I can't even get the timing past TDC! I drive it around and no matter how much gas you give it, it just bogs real bad and has no power. It starts to open up a bit in the higher range (5K+), but still not nearly where it should be. It is real jerky all through the powerband too, as if the timing is changing.

I just replaced plugs, wires, cap, and rotor thinking that would help, but it did nothing. I've done the timing check with an without the service connector jumped, and it's the same either way. This eliminates the ECU making adjustments, right? So what could be the issue? I'm thinking it's something that is causing a weak / delayed spark, causing the retardation and the jumpiness of the timing.

Any info would help!! I think it's just a coincidence that this happened after the timing belt install...because I don't see what I could have done wrong. I know for SURE that the cams and crank all line up. What other variables are there?

Thanks!

- Jon

 

I know this is a quick bump, but I don't want to have to drive my 350Z in this cold and crappy weather anymore!

Are there any sensors that would have gone bad that would cause this?

 

Ok - I simply need to know what part/sensor could be retarding the timing even with the service connector jumped, but only after the car warms up??

Knock sensor? A failing coil? It HAS to be something...

 

wtf did you just say? sounds like ur not doing the distributor timing right, HOW exectly are you checking timing?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by dannylDAsport &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">HOW exectly are you checking timing?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes, what procedure are you using to check and set the base timing? Are you jumping the service connector?

 

Nice response danny - much appreciated . Try to be a bit more respectful next time maybe?

I know you're supposed to wait for the engine to warm up first...but here's how i checked timing.

- Jumped the service connector (first time around i forgot to do this)
- Loosened the dizzy bolts so that I can turn it
- Started the car with the timing light hooked up
- Adjusted the dizzy while checking the timing marks. I have an advanceable timing light, but kept it at zero degrees and lined it up against the red mark on the crank pully.

With the engine not warmed up yet I was able to adjust it anywhere between TDC and 16 degrees. However, as it warmed up, it started pulling timing. So, but the time the car is warmed up, I can't even get the timing to be at TDC - it's way retarded. It has nothing to do with how I measure the timing, since it's obviously retarded (runs like ****, no power, stumbles, etc.)

 

With the service connector jumped, the ECU should not be pulling timing.

I assume there are no CEL's?

 

Thanks for trying to help me out here Padawan

You're correct - I'm not getting any CEL's. Since the ECU is somewhat out of the picture, I assume it could only be fuel or spark that is causing the issue. Could it be a bad coil or something that gets worse as the motor heats up?

I just did an ignition tuneup (plugs, wires, cap, and rotor) and it didn't help at all, so it must be something to do with the dizzy itself? Maybe a fuel issue?

 

Anyone else?

 

you didn't install the timing belt properly. your cam timing is off (at least) a tooth. take my word for it, it is easy to not have it set right, even if you think you do. i've done it.

also remember, you cannot set base timing until engine is at full temp and idle is adjusted to 850rpm.

you need to get a helms manual (or PDF of it at least) and follow it.

 

Thanks for the reply, but I don't think it's that easy.

After this happened once, I popped the valve cover back off and slid the belt over one tooth on the cams and it was knocking like crazy when I started it up because it was way too advanced. I knew this wouldn't work, but just wanted to make SURE that I wasn't one tooth retarded on the cams. Here's a pic for you on how it looks now...



Now the picture exaggerates it, but you can see that it is slightly retarded (crank is at TDC). However, one tooth either way and it's WAY off.

 

the timing marks in the center are what you're worried about. it's hard to tell if they are in-line with one another, or not.

the "up" marks are only general and should simply be pointing up (as opposed to down)

 

Have you tried moving the belt a tooth at the crank? Those don't look as though they're timed properly.

 

 

Shoot - one tooth at the crank might do it. For some reason i was retarded and was thinking that one tooth at the crank would be the same as one tooth at the cams - but one tooth on the crank should result in a slight movement of the cams, right?

Still, the cams are just slightly off - i would think that sliding the belt over one on the crank or the cams would be a drastic move.

Well time to rip this **** apart again.

One thing though - it still doesn't explain how the motor starts up way advanced, and then retards when it warms up. I remember this from before I did the timing belt. Actually, I think it knocked when it first started up, then went away. I guess I'll just have to have a more conservative timing set then :-/

 

like i said, get it all aligned right first. let it warm up 100%, set idle to 850rpm, jump the service connector... THEN set the base timing

timing changes a LOT depending on the speed of the engine, especially at low load/rpm. open a honda bin in any free editor and you'll know what i mean.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by -DC2- &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">open a honda bin in any free editor and you'll know what i mean.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Haha. Ok, I'll take another look at it again and post up what I find. And damn would I feel stupid if this was the issue.

Thanks for the help guys

 

Well, that was it. One tooth off on the crank. It still doesn't line up perfect - the cams seem to line up more with the 16 degree mark, but the car is running great. Timing is way advanced while warming up, but isn't knocking at all. But once it's warmed up I was able to dial in the timing just fine.

Sorry for being an idiot - but thanks for the help guys!

 

See in the picture that I have below. On the INTAKE cam I circled the white mark. That mark should be lined up with the white mark on the EXHAUST cam, which I do not see meaning it is out of timing.

Also, you must make sure the crank is set at TDC as well for cylinder #1. There is a mark on the crank gear and a mark on the oil pump. Line those marks up, and then make sure the white marks on the cam gears are lined up DIRECTLY across from eachother with the "UP" marks in the up position. The white marks must be EVEN. Not even off a little.

Be careful when putting the timing belt on because you may move the crank without noticing it or even thinking about it. I've gotten belts on where the cams are lined up but to see the crank moved.

Just be very careful. I found by keeping the spark plugs in the sockets it keeps the crank from moving because it requires more pressure to get it to move.

Once you have the belt on. Make sure you tension it properly and rotate the crank a few times and then LINE it up at TDC again and make sure all the markings are lined up correctly. Crank Pulley on the oil pump, and white marks on the cam gears.

Good Luck

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 92integraVTECgsr &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">See in the picture that I have below. On the INTAKE cam I circled the white mark. That mark should be lined up with the white mark on the EXHAUST cam, which I do not see meaning it is out of timing.

Also, you must make sure the crank is set at TDC as well for cylinder #1. There is a mark on the crank gear and a mark on the oil pump. Line those marks up, and then make sure the white marks on the cam gears are lined up DIRECTLY across from eachother with the "UP" marks in the up position. The white marks must be EVEN. Not even off a little.</TD></TR></TABLE>

It's odd - the manuals all show the two marks facing each other on the gears, yet they also show the "UP" marks facing up. Well, the "UP" stamping is really the important thing. maybe the exhaust gear was replaced at one time with the intake gear? Or maybe Honda ran out of exhaust gears on the assembly line

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 92integraVTECgsr &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Be careful when putting the timing belt on because you may move the crank without noticing it or even thinking about it. I've gotten belts on where the cams are lined up but to see the crank moved.

Just be very careful. I found by keeping the spark plugs in the sockets it keeps the crank from moving because it requires more pressure to get it to move.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah, this must have happened the first time. This time around I actually moved the crank to the right a bit to compensate for some movement when i pulled on the timing belt. I also kept the spark plugs in - more of a pain to turn, but yes, helps keeps things from turning too easily.

Like I said in my post though, i finally got everything back together and working great. Things didn't line up perfect, but it's never going to line up perfect.

Thanks again for the help

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jsweet &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It's odd - the manuals all show the two marks facing each other on the gears, yet they also show the "UP" marks facing up. Well, the "UP" stamping is really the important thing.</TD></TR></TABLE>

NO, the timing marks are what's important, not the "up" marks.

but, whatever. it's fixed now.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by -DC2- &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

NO, the timing marks are what's important, not the "up" marks.

but, whatever. it's fixed now.</TD></TR></TABLE>

HAHA correct.

 

No, i'm saying it's important that the "UP" marks are both "UP". Yes, the timing marks need to be lined up (in this case, at least horizontal). What would be the point of "UP" marks if one of them should be down, and one up?

 

Just to make sure, If you turn the crank so that the two marks on the cam gear are right next to each other, does TDC on the crank pulley line up with the plastic arrow on the timing belt cover?