Prelude that won't start sometimes.... $#)@(*&%)@
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 24
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From: Seattle, WA, United States of America
Prelude that won't start sometimes.... $#)@(*&%)@
Ok... This might not be very exciting for folks that are cruising for 30psi drag machines...
I'm a tech for a company that does lots of fleet contracts (hence mobile work), as well as owning an independent performance shop. Used to drive an SUV (I know, ick) but once the gas crunch started, I went ahead and grabbed a little 87 prelude SI and I haul all my tools around in the trunk. (Untill last weekend when a bunch of little #)*$@# meth heads stole them)
But here's the problem. Ever since I bought the car, I've had this wierd recurring problem. The engine will periodically refuse to start. Crank it forever, jump it, beat on it, remove any fuse, disconnect the battery, it does nothing. If you leave it alone and don't crank it at all for about 20 mins to an hour, you turn the key and it starts right up. I also feel as if I sense some hesitation every now and then, even a barely noticible "hiccup" while driving.
Being a tech myself, I've been trying to diagnose this issue from day one. Replaced the wires, plugs, ignition module, coil. I am considering the possiblility that it may be a fuel delivery issue... however tests came back looking pretty good. Good fuel pressure, very little waver or needle movement.
I'm gonna replace the filter this week, and then I guess I'm gonna do the fuel pump... just keep fixing things that aren't broke until I find the one that is.
Has anyone had this type of problem before, or have a suggestion?
I'm a tech for a company that does lots of fleet contracts (hence mobile work), as well as owning an independent performance shop. Used to drive an SUV (I know, ick) but once the gas crunch started, I went ahead and grabbed a little 87 prelude SI and I haul all my tools around in the trunk. (Untill last weekend when a bunch of little #)*$@# meth heads stole them)
But here's the problem. Ever since I bought the car, I've had this wierd recurring problem. The engine will periodically refuse to start. Crank it forever, jump it, beat on it, remove any fuse, disconnect the battery, it does nothing. If you leave it alone and don't crank it at all for about 20 mins to an hour, you turn the key and it starts right up. I also feel as if I sense some hesitation every now and then, even a barely noticible "hiccup" while driving.
Being a tech myself, I've been trying to diagnose this issue from day one. Replaced the wires, plugs, ignition module, coil. I am considering the possiblility that it may be a fuel delivery issue... however tests came back looking pretty good. Good fuel pressure, very little waver or needle movement.
I'm gonna replace the filter this week, and then I guess I'm gonna do the fuel pump... just keep fixing things that aren't broke until I find the one that is.
Has anyone had this type of problem before, or have a suggestion?
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Re: Prelude that won't start sometimes.... $#)@(*&%)@ (FFP)
This sounds remarkably like the main relay problem that's apparently common in Hondas. (Happened to mine.)
Typically, it won't start when it's hot INSIDE the car. So, you come back from a quick stop parked in the sun and it won't start. You sit inside with the door open for 15 minues cursing at it, and then magically it works again.
Since the main relay powers the fuel pump and ignition (I believe), you crank and crank forever and never get it to fire. (No fuel, no spark... you're up a creek.) Turns out the solder joints connecting the relay to its little circuit board are prone to cracking. They work fine until the relay gets hot, expands a bit, and those little cracks pull apart.
When I first read about this I was about to go buy myself a new relay until I found out that they run about $70!... suddenly repairing it sounded like a much better option.
I can't find the directions I used to fix mine, but here are some photos and directions someone has put together:
http://www.integra.orcon.net.nz/relay
Basically, you just want to re-melt the solder on each of the pins. This writeup doesn't make a big deal of it, but re-melt ALL of them since the cracks are barely visible and you're likely to think it looks fine at first glance. Mine "looked" perfect to me when I was having problems, but after resoldering the pins, my Prelude has started perfectly every time since.
It's the most fruitful 15 minute repair job I've ever done.
Good luck.
Typically, it won't start when it's hot INSIDE the car. So, you come back from a quick stop parked in the sun and it won't start. You sit inside with the door open for 15 minues cursing at it, and then magically it works again.
Since the main relay powers the fuel pump and ignition (I believe), you crank and crank forever and never get it to fire. (No fuel, no spark... you're up a creek.) Turns out the solder joints connecting the relay to its little circuit board are prone to cracking. They work fine until the relay gets hot, expands a bit, and those little cracks pull apart.
When I first read about this I was about to go buy myself a new relay until I found out that they run about $70!... suddenly repairing it sounded like a much better option.
I can't find the directions I used to fix mine, but here are some photos and directions someone has put together:
http://www.integra.orcon.net.nz/relay
Basically, you just want to re-melt the solder on each of the pins. This writeup doesn't make a big deal of it, but re-melt ALL of them since the cracks are barely visible and you're likely to think it looks fine at first glance. Mine "looked" perfect to me when I was having problems, but after resoldering the pins, my Prelude has started perfectly every time since.
It's the most fruitful 15 minute repair job I've ever done.
Good luck.
Junior Member
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 996
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From: Virginia Hills, USA
Re: Prelude that won't start sometimes.... $#)@(*&%)@ (FFP)
this also sounds like the main relay issue to me. I'm not sure if the third gen has been covered here, but do a search for main relay in the prelude archives. Also you might look around preludepower.com for your problem.
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
From: Seattle, WA, United States of America
Re: Prelude that won't start sometimes.... $#)@(*&%)@ (Jagan'92)
Sounds pretty promising. I will definately give her a try this weekend, check for cracks and try the procedure. It all sounds very promising. If it ends up working, I'll have to chalk another mark on the list of how many times honda-tech has saved my ***.
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Re: Prelude that won't start sometimes.... $#)@(*&%)@ (FFP)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FFP »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If it ends up working, I'll have to chalk another mark on the list of how many times honda-tech has saved my ***.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Seriously... What did people ever do before the internet?
Good luck!
Seriously... What did people ever do before the internet?
Good luck!
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
From: Seattle, WA, United States of America
Re: Prelude that won't start sometimes.... $#)@(*&%)@
Well, this morning I got up early and pulled out the relay. On the prelude, I found out that you don't even have to remove the panel underneath the stearing wheel (4 10mm bolts, one philips head screw). The main relay is quite accesible located behind the handle that pops the hood. Of course I found that out after I had taken the panel off, then the cat knocks it off the workbench and it snaps in half. (@$#)*@# old plastic) I break out the super glue, beat the cat a little and then pull out the relay (1 10mm bolt) which is tucked in there behind the fuse panel.
First I wanted to make sure that the problem I was experiencing was similar, so I unplug the relay and crank it. Same sort of thing... kind of false start and then nothing, dead. Only worry is that sometimes the car would start for a second and then run poorly and die in the same way, but cars are funny like that.
Taking the cover off the relay is kinda tricky... it helps to squeeze in and pop out one side at a time, and then shimmy the whole thing out of the casing, which is basically like a little plastic cup. I inspected the solders on the relay, but I didn't see any obvious cracks, which I was honestly kind of hoping for, because then I would me more sure that I had the problem nailed down. So I decided to do a second makeshift test. I run the relay underneath my girl's hairdryer for a good 5 mins and get it pretty hot. Then run down and plug it in. The relay is almost too hot to touch, but the car starts right up. Damn. Again, hoping that I would have it nailed down with more certainty. Intermittent problems are the worst. You always think you have them whipped, and then they sneak up on you again.
Time to do the repair anyway. My decision is to touch up all the points one by one and add a little extra material along the way. They were a little skimpy on the original job. I heated up the gun and got going. The relay itself did a good job of conducting heat away from the points and making it hard to maintain a good puddle and ensure proper fusion. Once the points are molten though, WATCH OUT! Honda used some really thin solder and it will want to run away on you. I used 18 gauge rosin core solder to add the extra material and it worked great. I did scratch up the board a little bit though, you will want to make sure you don't put too much pressure on the points because once they melt, they get really runny. You get the idea. After I had redone all the points, I cleaned up the board with an electricians brush and resealed the boundaries with the same super glue I used to fix the broken dash. Put it all back together and she still started up great, so I didn't f*ck her up too much. Hopefully that takes care of it.
Thanks for all the help guys
First I wanted to make sure that the problem I was experiencing was similar, so I unplug the relay and crank it. Same sort of thing... kind of false start and then nothing, dead. Only worry is that sometimes the car would start for a second and then run poorly and die in the same way, but cars are funny like that.
Taking the cover off the relay is kinda tricky... it helps to squeeze in and pop out one side at a time, and then shimmy the whole thing out of the casing, which is basically like a little plastic cup. I inspected the solders on the relay, but I didn't see any obvious cracks, which I was honestly kind of hoping for, because then I would me more sure that I had the problem nailed down. So I decided to do a second makeshift test. I run the relay underneath my girl's hairdryer for a good 5 mins and get it pretty hot. Then run down and plug it in. The relay is almost too hot to touch, but the car starts right up. Damn. Again, hoping that I would have it nailed down with more certainty. Intermittent problems are the worst. You always think you have them whipped, and then they sneak up on you again.
Time to do the repair anyway. My decision is to touch up all the points one by one and add a little extra material along the way. They were a little skimpy on the original job. I heated up the gun and got going. The relay itself did a good job of conducting heat away from the points and making it hard to maintain a good puddle and ensure proper fusion. Once the points are molten though, WATCH OUT! Honda used some really thin solder and it will want to run away on you. I used 18 gauge rosin core solder to add the extra material and it worked great. I did scratch up the board a little bit though, you will want to make sure you don't put too much pressure on the points because once they melt, they get really runny. You get the idea. After I had redone all the points, I cleaned up the board with an electricians brush and resealed the boundaries with the same super glue I used to fix the broken dash. Put it all back together and she still started up great, so I didn't f*ck her up too much. Hopefully that takes care of it.
Thanks for all the help guys
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