JDM_DC4_Fanatic

I am lookin into an engine swap. The god of the swaps seems to be an ITR dominated market. I did some research, and found that stock for stock, the H22 makes 10 peak HP less, but 10 Ft-Lbs more then the ITR.

My questions are as follows:

1) Will the H22 Longblock bolt up to an EG 5spd hydro tranny?

2) Is the ITR worth its price compared to the H22?

3) IF the block wont bolt up to the stock EG tranny, will a prelide tranny fit in the engine compartment?

ThatsMyEG

1. no it wont bolt up

2. id rather have a itr motor but there both gonna be good reliable motors..

3. a prelude tranny will work ifs its a h22 tranny or h23.

thats my 2 cents

Kusai.Nihonjin.Desu

A member has mated a b-series tranny onto an h22. Very rare to say the least.

EKCRX-Ihadastupidusername

HP numbers, since you're off a little:

96-97 JDM ITR...........197
98 Spec ITR(98-01)....200
USDM B18C5.............195

93-96 USDM H22A man..190 (no VTEC in 92)
93-96 JDM H22A man.....195
All 97-01 H22A man.......200
97-01 Type S JDM..........220

Torque is 132ft/lbs B18C VS 156 ft/lbs H22A

JDM Type S > B18C Type R.

H22A also bolts to 1990-02 F series Accord trannies, but the gearing isn't optimal. The best gearing is the 93-96 JDM Preludes, they are shorter than USDM 4th gen, or any 5th gen.

The ONLY reason ITR is more, is because by the tme you've put the H22A into a Civic/Teg, it'll end up costing the same outright.

IHateJDM

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by diegoaccord &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The ONLY reason ITR is more, is because by the tme you've put the H22A into a Civic/Teg, it'll end up costing the same outright.</TD></TR></TABLE>

All good info, but I would compare the cost of the H swap to a GSR swap, not a B18C5.

B18C5-EH2

Actually when both set-ups are done right and tuned with similiar ECU programs, such as Uberdata, the H22A will probably outpower and out torque the B18C5 handily.

...but that doesn't always translate into the H22A being faster.

I have a friend with a good-running H22A swap in a stripped base model EG hatch.

i have a B18C5 ITR swap in a stripped base model hatch.

We both have i/h/e and run Uberdata. He has a better header, but I have cam gears dialed in to help me out and he doesn't.

We both went to the dyno on the same day, same tuner, etc. and I got 176/130 and he got 189/142? or something like that. He beat me on the dyno, but when we raced I won by a few car lengths. We both have LSD, and he even has good traction bars to help the launches, but I still got him each time.

My car has ran 13.3@101mph and 13.4@104mph UNTUNED (since those times I've picked up +25whp and +25 torque in the midrange, and 8 peak ft-lbs. of torque from fuel tuning) with 2.0 and 2.2 60 footers, while his best thus far is 13.8 I think with simliar 60 footers. I don't know if he got to run since tuning on the dyno, but I believe he did some runs after street tuning which is more than I've gotten to do.

Also of note is that the night I was running 13.3 on **** 60 footers another H22A swap with LSD, i/h/e in an even more stripped hatch was only running 13.8 - we had the same wheels/tires, 60 footers - my car was simply faster and quicker.

Now USUALLY the H22A swap is cheaper once everything is done, but if you do it right with custom axles, good ECU programming, GOOD header (run of the mill Dc **** just doesn't work on the H22A like the $500.00+ ones) then the end result is a much closer price than you might think.

The H22A is a bit more of a hassle to install because of the custom mounts, permanent modification to your chassis such as cutting off the framerail trans bracket, cutting holes for the shifter cables, etc. Also you 'll need custom axles, but even those bind even if you've got everything right such as my friend's car. He used top-dollar HASport mounts with Gator racing axles, yet he still has binding issues.

If you search "H22A" in the hybrid forum you will see way more problem topics than success stories, so again it's not the easiest swap to get running right. Also a lot of people have the misconception that the swap is very cheap - if you enter this swap with that midset you will fail, and you will simply add to the shitty running H22A swap topics, statistics, etc.

Also the B-Series swap drops in with all stock mounts, you can keep A/C and P/S with no drama, the shifter is rod-type with a more positive feel rather than cables, no custom axles needed, easier to get running due to no extensive wiring and they sit stock-like and weigh less than an H22A swap.

Now my experiences have been that no H22A hatch set up just like mine (in terms of mods, chassis, etc.) has beaten me nor ran better 1/4 mile times here in GA, but there will be others with H22A swaps that probably say the same about ITR swaps. I assure you my experiences have been as close to ideal in terms of scientific data, meaning both cars and set-ups were almost identical except for the engine/tranny itself and the drivers. One can only assume the driver should be familiar enough with his own car to drive it well.

Lastly the H22A makes more power and torque if set up right, but their tranny gearing sucks ***. The 1-4 gears are all taller and their final drive is taller too, but they have a short-*** 5th gear - it's *** backwards. You either keep all the gears tall and have a better theoretic top speed, or you keep them all short so it's quicker. Honda fucked up there.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">My questions are as follows:

1) Will the H22 Longblock bolt up to an EG 5spd hydro tranny?</TD></TR></TABLE>


<FONT SIZE="7">***EDIT***</FONT>

This topic was posted a year ago when adapter kits, etc. were not common at all so my original reply of "not at all" may not be true today.

Not at all. In fact as I stated earlier you 'll need a custom mount kit to mount in the H22A engine and tranny.

Also the B series won't bolt up to the D series tranny either, but it can bolt in with stock Honda mounts if you get a B-series hydro tranny swap.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">2) Is the ITR worth its price compared to the H22?</TD></TR></TABLE>

My personal opinion is hell yes. I've beaten the expletive out of my B18C5 for over 4 years now, and it still dynos what it did back in 2001 (actually more since it's been tuned) and it doesn't smoke, etc. not that an H22A would have blown up by now, but I rev the **** out of my B18C5 (actually missed a few shifts over the years) and I just do not believe the H22A could take what I dish out.

Couple that with the fact that I've still not seen any H22A hatches running like my B18C5 swap and the extra money is wroth it to me.

Also B18C5/Type R swaps are growing more rare by the day. You can almost always sell it for what you paid. A lot of people freak the expletive out when they see "Type R y0!" and it can only work in your favor if you decide to sell it. I'm not saying it's right how people over react, but they do.

BTW:

While the H22A is heavier and makes the car feel a bit nose heavy, you can set the suspension up to compensate for it. It takes some stiffer-than-front rear springs and a good rear swaybar to add rotation, but it can be done. It just takes more planning to get an H22A Civic to handle well. A B18C5 swap is more stock-like in it's weight and positioning (you see the B16A came stock in the EG chassis in Japan, so it's already ideal for B swaps) so it takes less effort to have a handling beast than with the H22A.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">3) IF the block wont bolt up to the stock EG tranny, will a prelide tranny fit in the engine compartment?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes, but again there is extra work involved.

A B-series swap can be done by your average shade tree within a day or two, tops. You won't need anything but the correct stock mounts, axles, shift linkage, engine/tranny, etc. and you don't have to cut anything. An idiot can drop in a B series and plug in a good rechipped P28 and make 175whp all day.

The H22A swap is not for the mechanically or electrical wiring challenged. Knowing what I know about it I'd not attempt it at home. I'd bring it to my shop where we have cutting tools, wires, soldering guns, etc. Getting the H22A to run well isn't like the B swap where you just plug in a remapped P28 and be done.

I will certainly catch **** for this, and yes this topic has been beaten to death, but I will always offer my point of view since I think it's a good perspective based on facts, not hearsay like "H22A swaps suck *** and can't handle" or "H22A rules in drag!" bullshit we always see from each side of the argument.


Modified by B18C5-EH2 at 10:37 AM 9/26/2005


Modified by B18C5-EH2 at 9:58 AM 9/18/2006

Kusai.Nihonjin.Desu

You bring up some good points. Im not too familiar with the h22 gearing, but perhaps a Type S(blue top) tranny would give it shorter gears? B18c5 is constructed more towards race, as H22s come in VTEC Preludes which may be equivalent to that of a GSR, perhaps?
Also I was thinking maybe the powerband is different as well, but I havent compared stock dyno charts of an h22 and a b18c5.

Too many variables!

IHateJDM

the tranny is definitely the biggest drawback to the H swap. You can buy an H2B adapter plate and mate the H block to a B tranny, but its not cheap, although that setup would beat the crap out of either H of B swaps alone. A buddy of mine has a C5 (I/H/E) in a EK coupe, and I ran him in my 93 H sol (I/H/E, using a cheap header) from 40 mph. I ended up about 3 feet in front at 115 mph (on a closed circuit of course ). I run 13.8's, he runs 13.9's. They are a very close match-up.

B18C5-EH2

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Nihonjin &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You bring up some good points. Im not too familiar with the h22 gearing, but perhaps a Type S(blue top) tranny would give it shorter gears? B18c5 is constructed more towards race, as H22s come in VTEC Preludes which may be equivalent to that of a GSR, perhaps?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Accord Euro R trannies are better for sure, but good luck finding one!

I'm not sure if even the blue top trannies have better gearing either, but they are not exactly common either.

DC4_MADMAN

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B18C5-EH2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Accord Euro R trannies are better for sure, but good luck finding one!

I'm not sure if even the blue top trannies have better gearing either, but they are not exactly common either.</TD></TR></TABLE>


That was some good info you put up there.

I had an H22 in a semi stripped down coupe, no LSD, I\H\E, no tuning and traction bars. On DRs I was pulling 2.0 60s and 13.6 all day in the 1/4, this was in a coupe and no LSD, I think your friend needs a little more practice. I dynoed 181\139 baseline(I\H\E), no tuning and no it was not a Type S.

I have been debating whether or not to go H again or do a C5 swap this time, and all that info you gave has given me much to think about.

EGmikeH22

H22 will give you more headroom when you are going all crazy with the engine.

Think type -R = better stock parts with the same power (if you don't have a type-S)

If you have two engines with the same power and you are going to be replacing ****, get the one with worse stock parts.
Think of intakes for example. A person with an integra could put a type-R intake on and gain significant power. If you have a type-R, you already have that power, and can't gain it. With an H22 you can put on an intake, gain that power that the person with the LS / GSR gained, and start pulling away from the type-R.

Stock for stock the H22 makes more power, and much much more usable power.
If you lightly mod both engines, the H will get more power gains because it doesn't already have the best of the best.
If you go retarded and turbo both engines, the H will have more headroom, spin a bigger turbo, have a SOLID DECK, and make more power.

If you want to believe someone who says "my friend's car that has more power and torque than mine and we weigh the same so go with my setup" (though he was a very cool and informative guy) I'd take a step back and look at that, maybe his friend is a sucky driver? Maybe he should get smaller tires or someting, but more power + same weight = faster car.

I have a non type-S H22 with a stock header and basic lightening (flywheel / underdrive / balance shaft belt cut (something you can't get a gain from with a type-R since they don't already have one)) and I run a 12.88 on BFG streetable tires.

With an H22 I hear this argument every time some B-head hears I have an H. Then I go out and whoop the **** out of them, take them for a ride afterwords, let them drive it to make sure its real, then they go "****" because

they dont have a balance shaft belt to cut for power, they already have a header and mine is stock, they have every bolton, and I don't.

So next year I'll do the rest of the boltons, then i can do more nitrous than a B since my engine is bigger and stronger (solid deck), sure a B can rev higher, but so can a weed whacker, who gives a ****! A STOCK H22 with titanium retainers can rev to 9000!

Get an H with an LSD (I DONT HAVE AN LSD LIKE A TYPE-R) do the basic mods, tune it right (I was running a VAFC when I ran a 12.8) be faster than a B

b what

(btw i really think B18C5-EH2 is a great guy with all ALL good info, listen to him too, but his friend sucks at driving or something)

jakeiscool

h22 swap-1950
R swap-4000+

not a hard choice, if money is no object, go for the B.

DC4_MADMAN

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JakeIsCool &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">h22 swap-1950
R swap-4000+

not a hard choice, if money is no object, go for the B.</TD></TR></TABLE>


h22 swap-1950+450.00(mounts)3-800.00(axles)=3200.00+
R swap-4000+

O RLY

I was talking to some mechanics at a pretty reputable place called Hybrid Dynamics in PA, and they spoke of a new adapter plate, that allows you to run a B series transmission with the H22. I'm not sure where to find this adapter, but it sounds legit. If thats the case, the H series is the way to go, but if not go with the ITR, cuz H series trannies = .

DC4_MADMAN

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JDMH22Civic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I was talking to some mechanics at a pretty reputable place called Hybrid Dynamics in PA, and they spoke of a new adapter plate, that allows you to run a B series transmission with the H22. I'm not sure where to find this adapter, but it sounds legit. If thats the case, the H series is the way to go, but if not go with the ITR, cuz H series trannies = .</TD></TR></TABLE>

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1273431

O RLY

Beautiful...thanks a lot man. Too bad for me that I already got a new clutch, flywheel, and LSD for my H series tranny, but at least we know that they exist.

NerveAgent

just get a damn b18c5.
too much of a hassle with the h22.
if you'll go threw all that hassle you should just get an (3rd gen) rx7 and put a corvette engine in it.

B18C5-EH2

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EGmikeH22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If you want to believe someone who says "my friend's car that has more power and torque than mine and we weigh the same so go with my setup" (though he was a very cool and informative guy) I'd take a step back and look at that, maybe his friend is a sucky driver? Maybe he should get smaller tires or someting, but more power + same weight = faster car.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

...not if you can't hook up well though. I drove his car, and even with LSd and traction bars it was impossible to launch on street tires.

Your times are exceptional - nice job. If you do some hunting and find the "Official H22A 1/4 mile time" topic you'll see your times are not the "norm" for H22A swaps. You obviously knew how to get it running right.

IHateJDM

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 4door_demon &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


h22 swap-1950+450.00(mounts)3-800.00(axles)=3200.00+
R swap-4000+


</TD></TR></TABLE>

so you don't need mounts or axles for a c5? I know you can use stock parts, but the stock b series parts are no where near the quality of aftermarket parts that you would buy for the H for those prices. HP/$, the H22 is the better deal, hands down.

IHateJDM

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by NerveAgent &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">too much of a hassle with the h22.
if you'll go threw all that hassle you should just get an (3rd gen) rx7 and put a corvette engine in it. </TD></TR></TABLE>

putting a v8 in an rx7 is 10x harder than an H swap. (and probably 10x more fun too).

jakeiscool

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 4door_demon &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">h22 swap-1950+450.00(mounts)3-800.00(axles)=3200.00+
R swap-4000+</TD></TR></TABLE>

If i ever spent 800 on axles or 450 on hybrid mounts, I would shoot myself.

B18C5-EH2

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by IHateJDM &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
so you don't need mounts or axles for a c5? I know you can use stock parts, but the stock b series parts are no where near the quality of aftermarket parts that you would buy for the H for those prices. HP/$, the H22 is the better deal, hands down. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Sorry but that's a pretty weak point.

I've had my stock mounts with only $35.00 ES inserts in place with zero problems for 4 years, and they don't rattle the **** out of the car like HASports/Place/HCP mounts do.

Also axles? Oh man B-Series rule there dude. If I snap an axle I get another for FREE because it's a 100% stock 94-up Integra axles. And the likelihood of us B series guys breaking axles is less because our axles are not in a bind like H series axles.

IHateJDM

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B18C5-EH2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Sorry but that's a pretty weak point.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

I was arguing the price more than anything, but you can also run stock honda axles on the H swap (binding issues have more to do with ride height than anything), and mounts are $280 (HCP).

B18C5-EH2

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by IHateJDM &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I was arguing the price more than anything, but you can also run stock honda axles on the H swap (binding issues have more to do with ride height than anything), and mounts are $280 (HCP). </TD></TR></TABLE>

So tell me which mounts and intermediate shaft one needs to run stock axles please.

I've heard of ONE mount and intermediate shaft combo that allows you to use 90-93 Integra axles, but I'd give shitty remans a week before they break with the torque and binding problems you'll encounter.

A guy can slam a B-Series EG and encounter few axle problems, but lower an H swap and not only is the oil pan a lot closer to the ground, but axle angles are less than ideal.

DC4_MADMAN

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JakeIsCool &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

If i ever spent 800 on axles or 450 on hybrid mounts, I would shoot myself.</TD></TR></TABLE>

450.00 is the average price I have seen, 800.00 for axles are for stage 2 or 3s which would be neccesary for anything over the stock power output of the H.

I have ran an H in a civic, I snapped 2 hybrid axles(stock axle config) on the same run(R and L axles), 1000.00 tow from the track later and I would gladly pay 800.00 for a set of stage 2 or 3 axles.

The point was that the H swap and R swaps are very close in price when all is said and done.