Fuel setup, etc.
Thread Starter
Chopper 2 Hopper
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,035
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From: Chicago, IL, USA
Fuel setup, etc.
I am getting this 1.8L together and having most of the stuff planned out, I don't seem to find any good info on fuel stuff.
First of all car is a 2000 SI, engine will be 81.25x89, P30 in B18A, OEM rods, crank, PR3 head with Portflow Headwork and OMNI valvetrain, BC4 cams, BC gears, BLOX IM, 67-65 overbored OEM TB, some other fun stuff.
First of all, FUEL PUMP, stock or 255 WALBRO ?
I don't know if I want to trust an engine that I spent few grand on this $80 fuel pump..
I got some old school AEM fuel rail, will probably go with Aeromotive FPR, and some kinda FP gauge, suggestions?
Next thing, injectors? Car will be tuned with Hondata, and will be OBD1. What size injectors should I go with? I'm thinking 310 or 370 ? Saturated or Peak and Hold, and what's the differents between the two ? Will I have to modify them to fit?
And lastly, sligthly offtopic, can I use the stock distributor ? Shud I look for OBD1 dizzy? Somewhere I read you go with the same distributor as your head.
First of all car is a 2000 SI, engine will be 81.25x89, P30 in B18A, OEM rods, crank, PR3 head with Portflow Headwork and OMNI valvetrain, BC4 cams, BC gears, BLOX IM, 67-65 overbored OEM TB, some other fun stuff.
First of all, FUEL PUMP, stock or 255 WALBRO ?
I don't know if I want to trust an engine that I spent few grand on this $80 fuel pump..
I got some old school AEM fuel rail, will probably go with Aeromotive FPR, and some kinda FP gauge, suggestions?
Next thing, injectors? Car will be tuned with Hondata, and will be OBD1. What size injectors should I go with? I'm thinking 310 or 370 ? Saturated or Peak and Hold, and what's the differents between the two ? Will I have to modify them to fit?
And lastly, sligthly offtopic, can I use the stock distributor ? Shud I look for OBD1 dizzy? Somewhere I read you go with the same distributor as your head.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 972
Likes: 0
From: Somewhere in the US
Re: Fuel setup, etc. (tommy69)
I got the following info. from http://www.msdignition.com/fuel_3.htm
basically OBD-1 and OBD-2 engines use Saturated injectors. OBD-0 engines use Peak and hold. To run peak and hold injectors in your OBD-1or2 engine you need to wire up a resistor box that the peak and hold injetors use. Well here just read:
Saturated Circuit Drivers/Injectors
Most domestic OE production EFI systems use an ECU with 12 volt Saturated Circuit drivers. These are very inexpensive, simple, and reliable. This type of driver works by supplying 12 volts to the injectors and the ECU turns it on and off to establish a fuel injector pulse. In general, if an injector has a high resistance specification (12-16 ohms) the ECU uses a 12 volt saturated circuit driver to control it. This means that the current flow in the driver and injector circuit stays low keeping the components nice and cool for long life.
Conversely, a downfall of a Saturated Circuit driver is that it has a slower response time (and closing time) than a peak and hold type. This slower time can somewhat decrease the usable operating range of the injector energized by this driver. An injector operating on a saturated circuit driver typically has a reaction time of 2 milliseconds while a peak and hold driver typically responds in 1.5 ms.
MSD offers two higher flow injectors that are designed primarily for quick response time with a 12 volt saturated circuit driver. The PN 2018 Injector is rated at 38 lb/hr with 12 ohms and the PN 2013 is a 50 lb/hr, 12 ohm injector.
Peak and Hold Driver/Injectors
These type of injectors and drivers may also be called current sensing or current limiting. They are more expensive and complex than saturated circuit drivers, and are not generally used with domestic production ECUs. They are primarily used in aftermarket high performance systems.
Most high flow injectors are low resistance (2-5 ohms) and use a peak and hold driver to activate them. The Peak current is the amount required to quickly jolt the injector open, and then the lower Hold current rating is used to keep it open for as long as the ECU commands. These require the extra kick from the higher current to keep the opening and closing time of the injector stable at the higher fuel flow rate.
With this type of driver, 12 volts is still delivered to the injector, but due to the its low resistance, the current in the driver circuit is high. How high? Using Ohms's Law we can calculate the current rating (12v/2 ohms = 6 amps). This is substantial current flow and a Saturated Injector cannot handle it.
The drivers also come in two values; 4 amp peak/1 amp hold, and 2 amp peak/0.5 amp hold.. Even though 6 amps may be available to operate the injector, the maximum it is allowed to reach is 2 or 4 amps, depending on the driver's current limit. Note that the MSD PN 2014 (72 lb/hr, 2 ohm) and PN 2015 (96 lb/hr, 2 ohm) injectors require a 4/1 amp driver.
basically OBD-1 and OBD-2 engines use Saturated injectors. OBD-0 engines use Peak and hold. To run peak and hold injectors in your OBD-1or2 engine you need to wire up a resistor box that the peak and hold injetors use. Well here just read:
Saturated Circuit Drivers/Injectors
Most domestic OE production EFI systems use an ECU with 12 volt Saturated Circuit drivers. These are very inexpensive, simple, and reliable. This type of driver works by supplying 12 volts to the injectors and the ECU turns it on and off to establish a fuel injector pulse. In general, if an injector has a high resistance specification (12-16 ohms) the ECU uses a 12 volt saturated circuit driver to control it. This means that the current flow in the driver and injector circuit stays low keeping the components nice and cool for long life.
Conversely, a downfall of a Saturated Circuit driver is that it has a slower response time (and closing time) than a peak and hold type. This slower time can somewhat decrease the usable operating range of the injector energized by this driver. An injector operating on a saturated circuit driver typically has a reaction time of 2 milliseconds while a peak and hold driver typically responds in 1.5 ms.
MSD offers two higher flow injectors that are designed primarily for quick response time with a 12 volt saturated circuit driver. The PN 2018 Injector is rated at 38 lb/hr with 12 ohms and the PN 2013 is a 50 lb/hr, 12 ohm injector.
Peak and Hold Driver/Injectors
These type of injectors and drivers may also be called current sensing or current limiting. They are more expensive and complex than saturated circuit drivers, and are not generally used with domestic production ECUs. They are primarily used in aftermarket high performance systems.
Most high flow injectors are low resistance (2-5 ohms) and use a peak and hold driver to activate them. The Peak current is the amount required to quickly jolt the injector open, and then the lower Hold current rating is used to keep it open for as long as the ECU commands. These require the extra kick from the higher current to keep the opening and closing time of the injector stable at the higher fuel flow rate.
With this type of driver, 12 volts is still delivered to the injector, but due to the its low resistance, the current in the driver circuit is high. How high? Using Ohms's Law we can calculate the current rating (12v/2 ohms = 6 amps). This is substantial current flow and a Saturated Injector cannot handle it.
The drivers also come in two values; 4 amp peak/1 amp hold, and 2 amp peak/0.5 amp hold.. Even though 6 amps may be available to operate the injector, the maximum it is allowed to reach is 2 or 4 amps, depending on the driver's current limit. Note that the MSD PN 2014 (72 lb/hr, 2 ohm) and PN 2015 (96 lb/hr, 2 ohm) injectors require a 4/1 amp driver.
Junior Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 320
Likes: 0
From: Huntsville, AL, USA
Re: Fuel setup, etc. (EG6 SiR)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tommy69 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I am getting this 1.8L together and having most of the stuff planned out, I don't seem to find any good info on fuel stuff.
First of all car is a 2000 SI, engine will be 81.25x89, P30 in B18A, OEM rods, crank, PR3 head with Portflow Headwork and OMNI valvetrain, BC4 cams, BC gears, BLOX IM, 67-65 overbored OEM TB, some other fun stuff.
First of all, FUEL PUMP, stock or 255 WALBRO ?
I don't know if I want to trust an engine that I spent few grand on this $80 fuel pump..
I got some old school AEM fuel rail, will probably go with Aeromotive FPR, and some kinda FP gauge, suggestions?
Next thing, injectors? Car will be tuned with Hondata, and will be OBD1. What size injectors should I go with? I'm thinking 310 or 370 ? Saturated or Peak and Hold, and what's the differents between the two ? Will I have to modify them to fit?
And lastly, sligthly offtopic, can I use the stock distributor ? Shud I look for OBD1 dizzy? Somewhere I read you go with the same distributor as your head.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Stock fuel pump will work fine but the walbro won't hurt
Aem Rail is fine
Definetly get the Aeromotive FPR
Get a liquid filled Fuel pressure gauge (Marshall) I have them if you need one
If its not going to be turboed or blown the the injector size really doesnt matter Hondata will take care of it.
The disrtibuitor all depends on the wiring OBD2 wiring OBD2 Distribuitor
First of all car is a 2000 SI, engine will be 81.25x89, P30 in B18A, OEM rods, crank, PR3 head with Portflow Headwork and OMNI valvetrain, BC4 cams, BC gears, BLOX IM, 67-65 overbored OEM TB, some other fun stuff.
First of all, FUEL PUMP, stock or 255 WALBRO ?
I don't know if I want to trust an engine that I spent few grand on this $80 fuel pump..
I got some old school AEM fuel rail, will probably go with Aeromotive FPR, and some kinda FP gauge, suggestions?
Next thing, injectors? Car will be tuned with Hondata, and will be OBD1. What size injectors should I go with? I'm thinking 310 or 370 ? Saturated or Peak and Hold, and what's the differents between the two ? Will I have to modify them to fit?
And lastly, sligthly offtopic, can I use the stock distributor ? Shud I look for OBD1 dizzy? Somewhere I read you go with the same distributor as your head.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Stock fuel pump will work fine but the walbro won't hurt
Aem Rail is fine
Definetly get the Aeromotive FPR
Get a liquid filled Fuel pressure gauge (Marshall) I have them if you need one
If its not going to be turboed or blown the the injector size really doesnt matter Hondata will take care of it.
The disrtibuitor all depends on the wiring OBD2 wiring OBD2 Distribuitor
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 972
Likes: 0
From: Somewhere in the US
Re: Fuel setup, etc. (deeweewoo)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by deeweewoo »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
If its not going to be turboed or blown the the injector size really doesnt matter Hondata will take care of it.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
FALSE.............Actually injector size does matter. Sure hondata will take care of leaning out, but do you really want your injectors to run close to 100% duty cycle when it should only run up to 80%.............Please know your information before you post. Here is something to back up my statement as well. Check this link, it shows you how to calculate what size injectors you need for your HP output. It also can calculate estimated HP that an injector can support. Here you go straight from RCs website...........Enjoy
http://www.rceng.com/technical.htm
If its not going to be turboed or blown the the injector size really doesnt matter Hondata will take care of it.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
FALSE.............Actually injector size does matter. Sure hondata will take care of leaning out, but do you really want your injectors to run close to 100% duty cycle when it should only run up to 80%.............Please know your information before you post. Here is something to back up my statement as well. Check this link, it shows you how to calculate what size injectors you need for your HP output. It also can calculate estimated HP that an injector can support. Here you go straight from RCs website...........Enjoy
http://www.rceng.com/technical.htm
Junior Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 320
Likes: 0
From: Huntsville, AL, USA
Re: Fuel setup, etc. (EG6 SiR)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EG6 SiR »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
FALSE.............Actually injector size does matter. Sure hondata will take care of leaning out, but do you really want your injectors to run close to 100% duty cycle when it should only run up to 80%.............Please know your information before you post. Here is something to back up my statement as well. Check this link, it shows you how to calculate what size injectors you need for your HP output. It also can calculate estimated HP that an injector can support. Here you go straight from RCs website...........Enjoy
http://www.rceng.com/technical.htm</TD></TR></TABLE>
All I was saying is that the 310 or 370 that he was looking at would be fine because hes not running much more than a stock B18 and they use 240 injectors so if he gets the bigger ones Hondata will tune them down accordingly. I was only talking in relation to his setup not in general. That is why my comment is directed to him NOT YOU!
FALSE.............Actually injector size does matter. Sure hondata will take care of leaning out, but do you really want your injectors to run close to 100% duty cycle when it should only run up to 80%.............Please know your information before you post. Here is something to back up my statement as well. Check this link, it shows you how to calculate what size injectors you need for your HP output. It also can calculate estimated HP that an injector can support. Here you go straight from RCs website...........Enjoy
http://www.rceng.com/technical.htm</TD></TR></TABLE>
All I was saying is that the 310 or 370 that he was looking at would be fine because hes not running much more than a stock B18 and they use 240 injectors so if he gets the bigger ones Hondata will tune them down accordingly. I was only talking in relation to his setup not in general. That is why my comment is directed to him NOT YOU!
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Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 972
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From: Somewhere in the US
Re: Fuel setup, etc. (deeweewoo)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by deeweewoo »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
All I was saying is that the 310 or 370 that he was looking at would be fine because hes not running much more than a stock B18 and they use 240 injectors so if he gets the bigger ones Hondata will tune them down accordingly. I was only talking in relation to his setup not in general. That is why my comment is directed to him NOT YOU!</TD></TR></TABLE>
Why dont you read what he wrote before you post................
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tommy69 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
First of all car is a 2000 SI, engine will be 81.25x89, P30 in B18A, OEM rods, crank, PR3 head with Portflow Headwork and OMNI valvetrain, BC4 cams, BC gears, BLOX IM, 67-65 overbored OEM TB, some other fun stuff.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I dont know about you but to me, it sounds like he's building an LS-Vtec. P30 pistons in a B18A with a PR3 head. I dont this he is running a stock B18A. But you be go ahead and think that and give wrong information.................
All I was saying is that the 310 or 370 that he was looking at would be fine because hes not running much more than a stock B18 and they use 240 injectors so if he gets the bigger ones Hondata will tune them down accordingly. I was only talking in relation to his setup not in general. That is why my comment is directed to him NOT YOU!</TD></TR></TABLE>
Why dont you read what he wrote before you post................
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tommy69 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
First of all car is a 2000 SI, engine will be 81.25x89, P30 in B18A, OEM rods, crank, PR3 head with Portflow Headwork and OMNI valvetrain, BC4 cams, BC gears, BLOX IM, 67-65 overbored OEM TB, some other fun stuff.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I dont know about you but to me, it sounds like he's building an LS-Vtec. P30 pistons in a B18A with a PR3 head. I dont this he is running a stock B18A. But you be go ahead and think that and give wrong information.................
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 972
Likes: 0
From: Somewhere in the US
Re: Fuel setup, etc. (tommy69)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tommy69 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
First of all, FUEL PUMP, stock or 255 WALBRO ?
I don't know if I want to trust an engine that I spent few grand on this $80 fuel pump..
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Walbro is a good pump, no doubt about it.........there are plenty of people on honda-tech that run these pumps. But I think stock will be enough to handle your setup. Someone correct me if im wrong, but the stock 00' Si has a 125lph pump.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tommy69 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I got some old school AEM fuel rail, will probably go with Aeromotive FPR, and some kinda FP gauge, suggestions?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Aeromotive makes good FPRs, I believe they are direct bolt ons to the fuel rail.......I personally run the B&M FPR and Gauge that I got for a good deal from one of the H-T sponsers, but they utilize your stock FPR, meaning you have to cut about a 1/4" all around from you stock FPR top hat and slide the B&M over it. Its up to you what you choose on getting...........to get more info on the install of the B&M FPR, well heres the link http://www.c-speedracing.com/h...r.php
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tommy69 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Next thing, injectors? Car will be tuned with Hondata, and will be OBD1. What size injectors should I go with? I'm thinking 310 or 370 ? Saturated or Peak and Hold, and what's the differents between the two ? Will I have to modify them to fit?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Read a couple posts up.........I covered this question. And the only modification you have to do to RC injectors is wire up the clips to your harness, which is pretty simple.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tommy69 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
And lastly, sligthly offtopic, can I use the stock distributor ? Shud I look for OBD1 dizzy? Somewhere I read you go with the same distributor as your head.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
The dizzy of your choice should match your ECU. So if you are going to run the stock Si ECU which is, I believe a P2T OBD-2. Then you should use your OBD-2 dizzy. If you decide to run an OBD-1 P28, then go for an OBD-1 Dizzy for a B-series Vtec head.
Done.............hope this helps, if you have anymore questions.......just PM me.
First of all, FUEL PUMP, stock or 255 WALBRO ?
I don't know if I want to trust an engine that I spent few grand on this $80 fuel pump..
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Walbro is a good pump, no doubt about it.........there are plenty of people on honda-tech that run these pumps. But I think stock will be enough to handle your setup. Someone correct me if im wrong, but the stock 00' Si has a 125lph pump.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tommy69 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I got some old school AEM fuel rail, will probably go with Aeromotive FPR, and some kinda FP gauge, suggestions?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Aeromotive makes good FPRs, I believe they are direct bolt ons to the fuel rail.......I personally run the B&M FPR and Gauge that I got for a good deal from one of the H-T sponsers, but they utilize your stock FPR, meaning you have to cut about a 1/4" all around from you stock FPR top hat and slide the B&M over it. Its up to you what you choose on getting...........to get more info on the install of the B&M FPR, well heres the link http://www.c-speedracing.com/h...r.php
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tommy69 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Next thing, injectors? Car will be tuned with Hondata, and will be OBD1. What size injectors should I go with? I'm thinking 310 or 370 ? Saturated or Peak and Hold, and what's the differents between the two ? Will I have to modify them to fit?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Read a couple posts up.........I covered this question. And the only modification you have to do to RC injectors is wire up the clips to your harness, which is pretty simple.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tommy69 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
And lastly, sligthly offtopic, can I use the stock distributor ? Shud I look for OBD1 dizzy? Somewhere I read you go with the same distributor as your head.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
The dizzy of your choice should match your ECU. So if you are going to run the stock Si ECU which is, I believe a P2T OBD-2. Then you should use your OBD-2 dizzy. If you decide to run an OBD-1 P28, then go for an OBD-1 Dizzy for a B-series Vtec head.
Done.............hope this helps, if you have anymore questions.......just PM me.
Thread Starter
Chopper 2 Hopper
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,035
Likes: 0
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Re: Fuel setup, etc. (EG6 SiR)
Thanks for some good information guys.
I didn't want to create any confusion, the motor in fact is a LS/vtec ~12.x:1 compression, etc.
I decided I will go with an aftermarket fuel pump, I will probably get the Walbro 255.
RC 310's seem like a perfect injectors from what I read up on the RC website.
I will have a Hondata OBD1 ready ECU (p28 I think) with built in conversion, so I guess I need to find an OBD1 Dizzy.
Thanks
I didn't want to create any confusion, the motor in fact is a LS/vtec ~12.x:1 compression, etc.
I decided I will go with an aftermarket fuel pump, I will probably get the Walbro 255.
RC 310's seem like a perfect injectors from what I read up on the RC website.
I will have a Hondata OBD1 ready ECU (p28 I think) with built in conversion, so I guess I need to find an OBD1 Dizzy.
Thanks
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,853
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From: Chattanooga, TN
Re: Fuel setup, etc. (deeweewoo)
looks like you got it covered bro...
ps. Tunertoys sells 450cc injectors for 200 bucks, i plan on using them on my boosted setup seems like a bargain and a half and i havent heard anything bad about them. they supply special clips if you need so you wont have to worry about rewiring. Cant hurt to be a little oversized.
Check out the sig we can hook you up with a fuel pressure gauge.
ps. Tunertoys sells 450cc injectors for 200 bucks, i plan on using them on my boosted setup seems like a bargain and a half and i havent heard anything bad about them. they supply special clips if you need so you wont have to worry about rewiring. Cant hurt to be a little oversized.
Check out the sig we can hook you up with a fuel pressure gauge.
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