<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by beepy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Here is an image of what I am talking about:


Obviously there has to be some sort of power transfer, but in this case it occurs inside the tranny. So to external viewers it is just a tranny with 2 CV joints and one output shaft. 4WD is not AWD, although AWD is 4WD at times. Kinda like, "a square is a rectangle but a rectangle is not a square".

If you took a 4WD system, added LSD's to both differentials, and made the transfer case automatic, then it would be an AWD.</TD></TR></TABLE>

4wd / Awd is the same thing a car with an engine that powers FOUR wheels.

Subaru's have a married transfer case on the back of the transmission and you can unbolt it.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MidShipCivic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> 4wd / Awd is the same thing a car with an engine that powers FOUR wheels. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Four wheel drive and All wheel drive differ in the proportioning of torque. Four wheel drive systems have a fixed torque split and is usually used in lower speed low traction applications (trucks in mud).
Some systems are able to basically lock the front and rear axles to the same rate of rotation. Such systems cause problems with driveline strain and unequal tire wear at higher wheel speeds, especially in high traction situations (on road) when turning. All wheel drive systems use variable torque bias.
This is why old four wheel drive cars are notorious for bad and dangerous handling, and why modern cars have a center differential.

Four wheel drive is most definatley NOT equal to all wheel drive.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MidShipCivic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Subaru's have a married transfer case on the back of the transmission and you can unbolt it. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I would very much like to see you 'unbolt' this magical 'married transfer case' on the back of subaru transmissions. All the Subaru AWD literature and design specifications I have seen show great pride in the fact that the AWD hardware is integrated in the transmission.

anyway
To do a chain drive conversion you would have to make room for the chain, right?. There would be alot of expense involved, questions about chain reilability, etc so why not just use a driveshaft instead and find a way to use a trasmission from an Alltrac or DSM or something? I think this is a fantastic idea for use in something small, like a sweet off road buggy, but for a car, I'd be skeptical.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Niles &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Four wheel drive and All wheel drive differ in the proportioning of torque. Four wheel drive systems have a fixed torque split and is usually used in lower speed low traction applications (trucks in mud).
Some systems are able to basically lock the front and rear axles to the same rate of rotation. Such systems cause problems with driveline strain and unequal tire wear at higher wheel speeds, especially in high traction situations (on road) when turning. All wheel drive systems use variable torque bias.
This is why old four wheel drive cars are notorious for bad and dangerous handling, and why modern cars have a center differential.

Four wheel drive is most definatley NOT equal to all wheel drive.

Those are things listed from other websites, I've read those same lines somewhere

You would find 4wd pasted on the back of a Honda Pilot and see Awd on Mitsubishi when in truth they just like to say it in a different way, 4wd and Awd are the same.


I would very much like to see you 'unbolt' this magical 'married transfer case' on the back of subaru transmissions. All the Subaru AWD literature and design specifications I have seen show great pride in the fact that the AWD hardware is integrated in the transmission.

anyway
To do a chain drive conversion you would have to make room for the chain, right?. There would be alot of expense involved, questions about chain reilability, etc so why not just use a driveshaft instead and find a way to use a trasmission from an Alltrac or DSM or something? I think this is a fantastic idea for use in something small, like a sweet off road buggy, but for a car, I'd be skeptical.</TD></TR></TABLE>



Thats the transfer case which holds the center differential it can come completely off.



Oh yeah and your an idiot, there's your magical.




Modified by MidShipCivic at 5:15 PM 1/20/2006

 

Those are very nice pictures. You are very good at finding interesting things on the internet. However, Perhaps our disagreement is one of nomenclature. As I see it, an unboltable transfer case is one that is separable while leaving the transmission operable, in the case of the subaru this is not so. The suabru transfer case is sparable in the same way that my transmission shift forks are separable, the transmission can't function in the vehicle without them, but they are certainly removeable.. The honda-tech community is now all the wiser about subaru transmissions however. I would say the subaru as an 'integrated' transfer case, as would fuji.

As for the four wheel drive and all wheel drive debate, There is a difference, but for most practical people in practical applications the function is the same. People who know the difference can appreciate it, and everyone else can enjoy the added traction of their vehicle in blissful ignorance. The line has been blurred by marketing, and common parlance.

Please don't take offense at my comments, if my degrees in mechanical engineering and biochemistry are not qualification enough to discuss the form and function of automobiles, alright then. I wasn't going to say anything, but you are an ignorant message board troll who likes to post in other peoples threads endlessly displaying the misinformation you have gathered spending too much time on the internet. so

I spend my summers in florida often, outside of orlando, and I'd be happy to stop by in the oversized shopping strip that is altamonte springs and discuss this further with you in person if you would like.

 

I say settle this with a transfer case throwing contest and call it good. Whomever wins gets to decide officially what the difference is between all wheel drive and 4wd.

Hmm distance or altitude...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Niles &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Those are very nice pictures. You are very good at finding interesting things on the internet. However, Perhaps our disagreement is one of nomenclature. As I see it, an unboltable transfer case is one that is separable while leaving the transmission operable, in the case of the subaru this is not so. The suabru transfer case is sparable in the same way that my transmission shift forks are separable, the transmission can't function in the vehicle without them, but they are certainly removeable.. The honda-tech community is now all the wiser about subaru transmissions however. I would say the subaru as an 'integrated' transfer case, as would fuji.

As for the four wheel drive and all wheel drive debate, There is a difference, but for most practical people in practical applications the function is the same. People who know the difference can appreciate it, and everyone else can enjoy the added traction of their vehicle in blissful ignorance. The line has been blurred by marketing, and common parlance.

Please don't take offense at my comments, if my degrees in mechanical engineering and biochemistry are not qualification enough to discuss the form and function of automobiles, alright then. I wasn't going to say anything, but you are an ignorant message board troll who likes to post in other peoples threads endlessly displaying the misinformation you have gathered spending too much time on the internet. so

I spend my summers in florida often, outside of orlando, and I'd be happy to stop by in the oversized shopping strip that is altamonte springs and discuss this further with you in person if you would like.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yep message board troll. kakakakaakaka!

I'm an ignorant poop building a 4wd car.

 

I'm probably not going to help anything but I need to increase my post count so I'll throw my .02 in anyway.

4wd systems generally don't have a center differential, sending equal power to both front and rear. Awd systems do, and usually send more power to the front than to the rear. Newer SUVs and trucks have a locking center diff yielding the best of both worlds, awd on high traction surfaces and 4wd for the uber slick stuff.

In a nut shell, if you were to raise an awd vehicle on a lift, you could turn the front wheels at a different speed than the rear wheels. On a 4wd vehicle both the front and rear turn equally.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RallySol &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm probably not going to help anything but I need to increase my post count so I'll throw my .02 in anyway.

4wd systems generally don't have a center differential, sending equal power to both front and rear. Awd systems do, and usually send more power to the front than to the rear. Newer SUVs and trucks have a locking center diff yielding the best of both worlds, awd on high traction surfaces and 4wd for the uber slick stuff.

In a nut shell, if you were to raise an awd vehicle on a lift, you could turn the front wheels at a different speed than the rear wheels. On a 4wd vehicle both the front and rear turn equally.</TD></TR></TABLE>

^ read those lines somewhere. Something called full-time 4wd its not equal split it can be w/e... /more **** in my bowl pls.

 

So as we can all see there is a difference between the two, Back to the topic of the thread....

Who's going to build a 4wd buggy or go kart? That would be something neat to see.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MidShipCivic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I'm an ignorant poop building a 4wd car.</TD></TR></TABLE>
We'll see won't we? have you started a thread yet? Or any design or fabrication work? People like to see crazy projects. We've seen your pile of parts, but no work yet, start a thread already.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mrbsponge &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">arent OLD saabs chains driven as well?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Beginning late 70s, Saab 99s had a "drop chain" primary drive with a set of three chains connecting the engine to the gearbox, which was mounted directly beneath the engine. The layout lasted through the first generation of 900s, ending in the early 90s.

Cool thing about the primaries was that you could easily change your overall gear ratios by using different primary gears, which were easily accessible. Of course, Saab transmissions blew up all the time.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by backpurge &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You should really take a bigger hit before you post next time.</TD></TR></TABLE>

^^^^ LOL

 

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[IMG][/IMG]


[IMG][/IMG]


hope this workz


Modified by highroller54 at 1:15 PM 1/29/2006

 

Your links dont work here.

 

Stop making a hyperlink into a picture. Unless the link ends with a picture file extension you will only get the red x.

Try this:

LINK

 

They work for me also...

 

wow haven't check this thread in a while, i thought it got laughed off honda-tech. Some good pics demonstrating chain driven setups. Makes me think it is more possible and feasible than people think. It probably could be the cheapest method too, besides some fabrication skills parts would be relativly cheap assuming no diff just full time 4wd with chains and sprockets. Besides i rathe break a chain, sprocket, or axle rather than a transfer case, driveshaft, or diff

 

This is the Honda S600 (and early S800) chain drive system:

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by smithenhiven &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">This is the Honda S600 (and early S800) chain drive system:

</TD></TR></TABLE>
That's wild. IRS with a solid axle. Do you know when honda started to use CV axles? I thought they were invented in the 20's.

I think it's pretty interesting to see when different companies accept newer technology.

 

For the D-bag running his mouth that AWD and 4WD are the same:

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/four-wheel-drive.htm
"Back to our corner-turning example: While the differentials handle the speed difference between the inside and outside wheels, the transfer case in an all-wheel-drive system contains a device that allows for a speed difference between the front and rear wheels. This could be a viscous coupling, center differential or other type of gearset. These devices allow an all-wheel-drive system to function properly on any surface.

The transfer case on a part-time four-wheel-drive system locks the front-axle driveshaft to the rear-axle driveshaft, so the wheels are forced to spin at the same speed. This requires that the tires slip when the car goes around a turn. Part-time systems like this should only be used in low -traction situations in which it is relatively easy for the tires to slip. On dry concrete, it is not easy for the tires to slip, so the four-wheel drive should be disengaged in order to avoid jerky turns and extra wear on the tires and drivetrain."

 

The terminology of AWD versus 4WD can sometime vary depending on the manufacturers, however, AWD refers to vehicles that CANNOT be put into 2wd mode. IE on AWD vehicles, you will always have the 4 wheels powered.
In AWD cases, there is always a method to allows the front and rear driveshafts to spin at different speeds (IE when turning the front/rear outside wheels turn faster) Some systems use a Viscous Coupler (Older American SUV's) some use a Torsen differential (AUDI), some use an electronically controlled differential (Lancer), and some just use an open differential.

4WD Vehicles are usually selectable. IE there is a lever or a button to push to engage 4WD, but the vehicles are usually driven on smooth surfaces/roads in 2wd mode to avoid drivetrain wear/damage. In 4wd mode, the center differential is LOCKED, and the front/back wheels turn at the same speed. This provides the most traction because the front and the back turn at the same speed and will pull you through even if 1 axle has no grip. If the surfaces are grippy, then the driveline and tires wear more as a locked differential doesn't allow the tires to turn at different speeds.

The only time AWD = 4WD is when some manufacturers use the term FULLTIME 4WD. The term full time 4wd implies that there is a mechanism that allows the front and rear axles to spin at different speeds.

Since I am big on Jeeps, I'm going to use them as an example. Jeep grand cherokees had 3 available transfer cases. (ALL OF THE JEEP USE CHAINS IN THE TRANSFER CASES TO DRIVE THE FRONT DRIVESHAFTS!)
1) The 249 Quadratrac found on V8 Jeeps is an AWD Case. It used a Viscous Coupler (VC) to vary torque between the front and back and to allow the driveshafts to spin at different speeds. When this VC gets old, it siezes and the car bucks when turning, the tires squeel, and the gas mileage gets worse. The AWD case has 2 modes 4HI and 4Low.
2) The 242 Selectrac Case is a Fulltime 4WD case, with a full time option (Modes are 2HI, 4Part time, 4 Full Time and 4Low. This case has an open center differential for 4 Full Time. Which is Lockable for 4Part time and 4Low operation.
3) The 231 Command Trac is the 4WD case that has no full time option. You cannot use it on the street in 4WD mode. It's options are 2HI, 4Part Time, and 4low

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GPNY &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

The only time AWD = 4WD is when some manufacturers use the term FULLTIME 4WD. The term full time 4wd implies that there is a mechanism that allows the front and rear axles to spin at different speeds.

Since I am big on Jeeps, I'm going to use them as an example. Jeep grand cherokees had 3 available transfer cases. (ALL OF THE JEEP USE CHAINS IN THE TRANSFER CASES TO DRIVE THE FRONT DRIVESHAFTS!)
1) The 249 Quadratrac found on V8 Jeeps is an AWD Case. It used a Viscous Coupler (VC) to vary torque between the front and back and to allow the driveshafts to spin at different speeds. When this VC gets old, it siezes and the car bucks when turning, the tires squeel, and the gas mileage gets worse. The AWD case has 2 modes 4HI and 4Low.
2) The 242 Selectrac Case is a Fulltime 4WD case, with a full time option (Modes are 2HI, 4Part time, 4 Full Time and 4Low. This case has an open center differential for 4 Full Time. Which is Lockable for 4Part time and 4Low operation.
3) The 231 Command Trac is the 4WD case that has no full time option. You cannot use it on the street in 4WD mode. It's options are 2HI, 4Part Time, and 4low</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm using a an NV3550 for my Civic with Full-time case NV242 .


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">For the D-bag running his mouth that AWD and 4WD are the same</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well I'll say it again 4 wheel drive = All wheel drive.

 

So now that we all correctly agree that 4wd and all wheel drive are different, and have seen it demonstrated, Does anyone else have information or experience with these chain drives. I don't ever plan on doing one, I just find it interesting.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Niles &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Does anyone else have information or experience with these chain drives. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I have experience with the S600 chain drive system.

 

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

 

https://honda-tech.com/zero...02410#
https://honda-tech.com/zero...02410#

I know what your doing.