MassDestruction

OK so I'm having transmission problems again. Basically the 3rd gear grind issue. I've been getting these a lot, and have been having a hard time as to why this keeps happening. So I open the manual to prepare for another syncro replacement, and I notice this(highlighted in red).




Instead of recommending the Honda Transmission oil its recommending 10W-30 Motor oil? I swear every mechanic I've ever met has said to use the stuff from Honda so I just assumed this is what I needed to do. I feel like an idiot for not checking, but I wanted to verify, and make sure before I commit to putting this oil in there. This is from the 1994 Acura Integra Service Manual. Thanks everyone. Appreciate your guys input.

Edit:
The exact transmission is a B Series LS out of an Acura Integra

stin1

iTrader: (1)

This is the OEM manual . The owner’s manual also states oil can be used but should be replaced ASAP if the oem is not available.

muellersfan

Use Honda MTF only.

Motor oil is more viscous, which can interfere with proper oiling of the mainshaft and countershaft.

MassDestruction

Thanks for clearing that up! Thank you muellersfan and stin1.

TomCat39

I personally disagree with Honda MTF. The current MTF is designed for newer manual transmissions like the K series etc.

Old MTF was made for the old 90's transmissions but the formula has changed. Avoid Redline MTF as if you have plastic cage bearings (most 90's Honda/Acura transmissions do) that particular MTF eats the cages. Replacement OEM bearing appear to be all metal cages now.

I personally like GM Synchromesh Friction Modified as it's as close to the old formula Honda MTF I've been able to find. It's made for aluminum/steel/brass setups. Basically made for brass synchros. This is my personal opinion with using and researching a fair amount on our older manual transmissions. Also be careful, there is a GM Synchromesh that is not Friction Modified, it's not the same and doesn't work as well.

There is another MTF that comes highly recommended that I don't remember right off the top of my head but it's change interval is significantly lower than OEM MTF or GM SM FM. If the name comes back to me, I will edit my post with it. I remember now, Torco MTF....

muellersfan

Honda recommends the current Honda MTF for all Honda manual transmissions.

https://www.bernardiparts.com/Honda-...RANSFLUID.aspx

ShaunRR

GM Syncromesh FM helped the grind in my D series quite a bit back in the day.

TomCat39

I'm aware of that.

I still don't think it's the best for the older transmissions. That is my opinion after running several different fluids.

I believe Honda is taking the stance of "close enough" to have only one fluid for all. Is it the best, I personally don't believe so. Will it work, sure, so will 10w-30.

Aquafina

iTrader: (3)

I don't recommend it for anything but a stock low RPM daily driver.

If you beat on it at all I recommend Torco MTF. If you're boosted, high RPM, or any sort of hard driving I recommend Torco RTF.

Honda MTF is too thin and lacks a good EP pack.

civic-steve-94

I used to run lucas 20W-50 in my B16 trans. I daily drove it for about 3Kmiles and raced it at the track when I could. It was turbocharged and made the power figures in my signature. I just installed a cuff and Wavetrac LSD for my new build all the bearings looked good(the third gear synchro and hub were smoked but that was probably my doing). Wavetrac recommends Motul 70w-90 or 75W-140 for their diffs.

ShaunRR

Glad to see you're still around man

JRCivic1

I agree with this ^^^^^^^^^^^^
Synchrotech MTF is essentially a 50/50 blend of Torco MTF and Torco RTF... how do you feel about this fluid ?

Aquafina

iTrader: (3)

I don't care for the 50/50 mix.

muellersfan

I can only speak for stock. If you are not "beating on it", use ONLY Honda MTF.

Bense

Most of y'all know more about trans fluid than I do, but here's my $0.02

Newer Honda MTF is thinner, and less appropriate for older, 90s Honda transmissions such as B, D, F, H series transmissions. In all of my D-series, B-series, F-series, H-series transmissions I always just ran conventional 10w30. I only used a Quaife LSD in D-series for a month or two. -- In my current J-series transmission that I just rebuilt, I ran conventional 10w30 for probably the first 2000 miles. I flushed it out and replaced it with 1 quart of Honda MTF, and the rest was conventional 10w30.

My thoughts about the synchromesh fixing gear grinds are just that the more viscous oil fixes the gear grinds. If I had a stock trans that was grinding gears, I would flush it with conventional 10w30. If that helped I might flush that and add some 10w40.

But, that's just me. If my transmission blows up, I just grab another one off the shelf in my garage.

muellersfan

In the absence of rigorous verifiable data, why would you choose anything other than Honda MTF for ALL manual Honda transmissions?

Bense

Because I've ran a plethora of different transmissions, each with multiple setups that I've taken apart multiple times. Each time I take them apart and inspect internals, they end up looking how I expect them to look. I've been doing this since 2005, haven't had a problem yet.

In my opinion, Honda can't make, or gear a transmission properly. But then again, my role with all of these Honda transmission mods that I do is dependent upon having that perspective.

Also, what rigorous verifiable data?

muellersfan

It's called science as opposed to anecdotal information. If I am given the choice between anecdotes versus a reputable engine and transmission manufacturer, the choice is easy.

Aquafina

iTrader: (3)

So you choose Honda's anecdotes over a professional transmission builder's anecdotes?

muellersfan

Honda has an international reputation for building engines and vehicles. Bense and you may be fine human beings and good mechanics, but as far I know your reputations do not extend beyond this thread. Why should I believe you over Honda? Give me something believable and verifiable.

Bense

I don't like like to flaunt it or to sound like I'm bragging, but If you're going to challenge me, then I'm going to defend myself. If you want to talk about science, then lets talk about science. This class ring that I'm wearing say "Bachelor's of Science Mechanical Engineering". My focus with in ME was thermal fluids. If you want to talk about fluids and viscosity, then lets talk about it. Lets talk about the fluid physical properties and how they change with temperature.

As I said in my first post in this thread, 10w30 is more appropriate for the older transmissions. This is because the Honda MTF formula changed. If I've got one service manual that says to use conventional 10w30, and if I've got another service manual that says to use Honda MTF and to not use 10w30, and with exception to a few ratios, all of the other parts in the transmission are the exact same (including part numbers), then which is to believe?

My old F23 / H23 Accord manual transmission in my '01 Accord had over 350k miles on it. The only reason that I'm not sure of the mileage is because the LCD panel on the gauge cluster stopped working and it was over a year before I replaced it. I had that transmission apart multiple times. Each time with over 75k miles in between. -- When I got the vehicle it had over 200k on it. At Around 250k I did H23A DOHC VTEC swap and I swapped out 3/4/5 gears + final drive using H23A1 (92-96 Prelude Si DOHC nonVTEC) gears that had over 150k on them. I replaced the brass synchros using whichever ones were in best condition. I used 320 grit sandpaper on the gear synchro cones, and the only new part I replaced was the input shaft bearing + seal. Honda never said that it was possible for me to do this, but that transmission has over 150k on it. I took it apart somewhere in there and I changed out 5th gear with one with a different ratio. The only reason I stopped using that transmission was because someone hit me in that car, and it was totaled (fwiw, accident declared not my fault). -- But I bought the vehicle back from insurance company and my friend put that engine+trans in his accord, and it's still working fine. I never filled it with Honda MTF, and every time I took it apart it looked fine. I always ran conventional 10w30 in it, and most of the time it was walmart brand. If there had been any other conventional 10w30 that was cheaper I would have ran that.

Honda has made many mistakes with their manual transmissions. Especially with ones that they've made within the last 20 years. Have you ever read the TSBs that Honda / Acura has published? I have. I eventually stopped paying attention to them because, from my experience with how many people from all over the world that I've talked with about Honda transmissions, I end up hearing about issues that people are encountering that they can't resolve. Sometimes I'm able to help, sometimes I'm not. Either way, most of the time, by the time Honda publishes a TSB, its old news to me.

Have you ever spent much time reading my writeups? Not to toot my own horn, but the irony here is that so much of what I do IS due to the fact Honda has transmission issues that they will not acknowledge, let alone resolve.

In fact, I'm just going to go ahead and say it -- Between myself, Aquafina (as much of a pain in the *** I'm sure I am to him), and a few other active members in this forum, and others that Aquafina and I consult with -- our knowledge / info supercedes Honda's published information that you're holding onto as irrefutable truth.

muellersfan

But where's the beef?

Where's the beef?

So far, all I have heard is "me and my buddy are pretty cool doods".

Bense

What is your objective in participating in this thread?

muellersfan

If there's truly a fluid better than Honda MTF to use in my Honda manual transmission, I'm VERY interested in knowing the rigorous evidence supporting the idea. So far, the information that I have read here and elsewhere seems weak or anecdotal.

Bense

How many times have you, personally disassembled and reassembled a Honda transmission?