What is required to remove A/C?
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 36
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From: SLC, USA
What is required to remove A/C?
My car has gotten to the point where it's not very practical on the street so a/c isn't very important to me anymore. Plus it's so crowded down there with the turbo, oil line, and downpipe. So I know there's the compressor, condensor, and the lines, but is there anything special required to remove it all? I know it's not quite legal to release frion (spelling) into the atmosphere but...
Any suggestions would help.
Any suggestions would help.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,521
Likes: 0
From: United States
Re: What is required to remove A/C? (hiendgsr)
youre supposed to take it to a certified person that has the machine for draining the freon out of the systems, as far as the removal of the rest of the system, regular hand tools do the trick
Junior Member
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 783
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From: Saint Paul, MN, USA
Re: What is required to remove A/C? (hiendgsr)
Freon?.. What you're still using R12??.. The dude's right, so if you don't have the AC Certification, you'r not suppose to be working on the AC System at all, not even topping it off.. But hey, what goes on in your garage, stays in your garage..
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Oct 2003
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From: United States
Re: What is required to remove A/C? (PnX-R)
freon, r134, whatever, calling it freon is just easier, and it does the same thing, just less harmful to the environment, but you are allowed to top off your system without a certification, why else would they sell the r134 at autozone or wherever with the kits that have everything to fill it up with, you can fill it all you want, but removing it from the system is what is not allowed, but what no one knows wont hurt them
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Re: What is required to remove A/C? (TIRENECK)
Im 609 certified yeah!!!!!!!!!! Just vent off all the freon into the atmosphere who will know? haha JK DO NOT DO THAT!!!!!
But yeah the guys are right if your using r-12 it has to be taken to a cert with a recycling machine to be drained. If your car is pre 94 you most likely are using R-12 but you can check for sure by looking near or around the service ports for the sticker that says if its R-12 or not.
But yeah the guys are right if your using r-12 it has to be taken to a cert with a recycling machine to be drained. If your car is pre 94 you most likely are using R-12 but you can check for sure by looking near or around the service ports for the sticker that says if its R-12 or not.
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,320
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From: Winnetka, CA, USA
Re: What is required to remove A/C? (hiendgsr)
here's some info I found:
EPA is performing random inspections, responding to tips, and pursuing potential cases against violators. Under the Act, EPA is authorized to assess fines of up to $27,500 per day for any violation of these regulations. Information on selected enforcement actions is available in the enforcement section.
If you wish to report a possible violation of the Clean Air Act, please file a complaint form or contact the Ozone Hotline at 800-296-1996.
Subject: EPA Q & As on DIYers Fixed and Mobile A/C service (venting)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.tech,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Keywords: freon venting Clean-air-act $25,000-fine do-it-yourself
[Email exchange between Geo. Goble and Christine Dibble @ USEPA
regarding questions on DIYers (Do-it-Yourselfers), on venting
and other rules for Clean Air Act (CAA) part 608 (mostly stationary
refrigeration A/C) and part 609 Mobile MVAC A/C (cars, busses, tractors,
etc) EPA's replies are in UPPER CASE.. Also attached is an EPA
supplied Q & A factsheet (not in upper case) on DIYers, venting, etc..
Hopefully this should clear up many misconceptions.. --ghg]
From DIBBLE.CHRISTINE@EPAMAIL.EPA.GOV Sat Jul 15 09:59:30 1995
From: CHRISTINE DIBBLE <DIBBLE.CHRISTINE@EPAMAIL.EPA.GOV>
To: ghg@ecn.purdue.edu, LEVY.JEFFREY@EPAMAIL.EPA.GOV
Subject: CAA section 609 & DIYers.. -Reply
Status: R
SEE ANSWERS IN ALL CAPS WITHIN THE TEXT. ALSO SEE THE ATTACHMENT, A Q&A
FACTSHEET WHICH I JUST PREPARED FOR FARMERS AND OTHER DIY-ERS. THIS
FACTSHEET WAS SENT FOR DISTRIBUTION AND REPUBLICATION TO AUTO. PARTS
AND ACCESSORIES ASSN. AND TO MANY FARM TRADE ASSNS. SUCH AS NORTH
AMERICAN EQUIPMENT DEALERS AND FARM EQUIPMENT RETAILERS ASSN. ISN'T
THERE A COMEDIAN NAMED GEORGE GOBLE?
>>> George Goble <ghg@ecn.purdue.edu> 07/14/95 10:24am >>>
Jeff,
I get hounded a lot (on the net & email) from DIYers wanting to work on
cars (with R12)...
CAA section 609 "for consideration" which lets DIYers get away with not
having to have certified recovery equipment, etc...and reading recent
FAQs (made by others whom have talked to you
and the ozone hotline)..and my reading of section
609 + Fedr Reg. updates, etc.. It is still not
completely clear on 609 DIYers and the "venting" situation..
Section 608 is very clear on not venting Class I or II and cert
needed to do everything.. (service, repair, disposal, etc)
on 609.. some say DIY venting is OK?? and others say something to
the effect, that no "certified" recovery equipment is needed, but it
is not legal for DIYers to vent classI or II and they must come up
with some means to achieve 4" vac in a system and capture
the charge...(for class I and II)
Wondered if you could clarify this when you have time (no hurry)?
NO VENTING ALLOWED BY
ANYONE AT ANYTIME! DIY-ERS DO NOT NEED TO USE CERTIFIED EQUIPMENT
HOWEVER. DIY-ERS CAN USE ANY PIECE OF HOMEMADE EQUIPMENT, JUST SO LONG
AS THEY DON'T VENT. THE EQUIPMENT DOES NOT HAVE TO ACHIEVE A 4-INCH
VACUUM. WHO HAS TO USE EQUIPMENT THAT ACHIEVES A 4-INCH (102 MM) VACUUM?
1. TECHNICIANS WHO PURCHASED 608 EQUIPMENT PRIOR TO 11/15/93, AND
2. ANYONE WHO RECOVERS REFRIGERANT FROM AN MVAC OR MVAC-LIKE APPLIANCE
(SUCH AS HEAVY CONSTRUCTION EQUIPMENT, FARM EQUIPMENT ETC.) THAT IS
DESTINED FOR DISPOSAL.
---
Also after Nov 15, 1995 it becomes illegal to vent "substitutes"
for class I & II (mostly HFCs) unless the EPA determines that each
substance poses no threat and can be vented...
So this means R-134a must be recovered at that point. This is clear.
If one runs into system charged with propane (R22 replacement)or
OZ-12, total hydrocarbon refrigerants 0.0 ODP, can these be vented
after Nov 15?
NO, UNDER 609, NO SUBSTITUTES FOR R-12 IN AN MVAC CAN BE VENTED, SO OZ-12
CANNOT BE VENTED. UNDER 608, NO SUBSTITUTES FOR ANY CLASS I OR II
SUBSTANCE CAN BE VENTED.
thanks..
Have a good day
--ghg
-----------------------------------------------------
FARMER.FCT file (wordperfect) converted to plain txt
From Christine Dibble @ the USEPA.
----
United States Office of Air and Radiation July 1995
Environmental Protection Stratospheric Protection Division
Agency 6205J
__________________________________________________ ________________________
Qs & As FOR FARMERS AND DO-IT-YOURSELF-ERS ON MOTOR VEHICLE
AIRCONDITIONING AND THE CFC-12 PRODUCTION BAN
OZONE PROTECTION HOTLINE TOLL-FREE (800) 296-1996
10 A.M.--4 P.M., MON.-FRI. EST
Q:Is it true that I have to become a certified technician and purchase
approved recycling equipment in order to work on my own motor vehicle's air
conditioning system?
A: No. Under Section 609 of the Clean Air Act, only people who repair or
service air conditioning systems for consideration -- that is, for payment,
whether it is monetary or some other form -- are required to be properly
certified and to use equipment approved by the Environmental Protection
Agency. That means that a do-it-yourselfer (DIYer) can work on his own car
without being certified or having to buy recovery or recycling equipment.
Like service technicians, DIYers are not permitted to vent freon (R-12
refrigerant) from an a/c system. Beginning on November 15, 1995, it will also
be illegal for anyone to vent R-134a, or any other R-12 substitute.
In addition, only certified technicians may purchase R-12. The EPA has not
yet decided whether sales of R-134a will be restricted to certified
technicians only. This decision should be made by November, 1995.
Q: How do I comply with the law and service a/c systems on a tractor, or a
car that is up on blocks, or any other vehicle that is difficult to move to a
service facility?
A: Topping Off. A farmer or other DIYer must become a certified technician in
order to purchase freon to "top off" his own tractor, truck or other vehicle.
If he becomes certified, he can purchase any size container of refrigerant and
perform the topping off himself. Of course, farmers and DIYers should take
all reasonable steps to avoid the release of refrigerant when topping off a
system. Intentional venting is illegal, but should not normally occur during
the topping off procedure if it is done properly.
Other Servicing. Should a farmer or other DIYer wish to do more than merely
top off, such as replace leaky or worn out components of an a/c system, then
in order to avoid venting refrigerant when opening up the a/c system, the
farmer or DIYer must make sure that the refrigerant gets recovered first. The
refrigerant does not need to be extracted into EPA-approved recover/ recycling
equipment -- it can be extracted into homemade equipment, for example -- but
it must not be vented! Venting refrigerant can lead to fines of $25,000 per
violation.
If the farmer or DIYer does not own recovery equipment, he can drive the
vehicle to a service facility, or hire a certified technician who has
recover/recycle equipment to come to the vehicle and service it.
Q: Apart from R-134a, what are some other refrigerants approved by EPA? Do I
need to be certified to purchase them or install them in my vehicle's a/c
system? Are there refrigerants that EPA considers unacceptable?
A: EPA has approved R-134a and FRIGC*, a blend manufactured by Intermagnetics
General Corporation of Latham, New York. FRIGC's manufacturer has informed
EPA that FRIGC will initially be marketed for use in vehicle fleets only.
Only certified technicians may purchase FRIGC, since it contains a chemical
that depletes the ozone layer (although it does far less damage than R-12).
You can call the Ozone Hotline in order to determine if other substitutes are
approved by EPA in the future.
Two refrigerants, OZ-12 and HC-12a, have been declared unacceptable by EPA,
because of unanswered flammability concerns. It is illegal to use these
refrigerants. They are both manufactured by OZ Technology, Inc. of Post
Falls, Idaho. EPA has also stated that all flammable substitutes are
unacceptable for use in vehicle a/c conversions.
Q: I'm not a certified technician and so I cannot purchase R-12. I've been
thinking about converting my motor vehicle air-conditioning system to use
R-134a, since I can purchase that refrigerant. What facts should I know
before I convert?
A: First, EPA may restrict the sale of R-134a to certified technicians only.
The proposed rule which would contain this provision (should EPA decide to
propose a sales restriction) should be published in August, and, after thirty
days of taking comment from the public, the final rule should be published in
November. Check with the Ozone Hotline after the publication of the proposal
to see if the sales restriction provision is contained in the proposed rule.
If the provision becomes part of the final rule, then sales of R-134a will be
limited to certified technicians shortly after publication of the rule.
EPA recommends that you consult your vehicle manufacturer, an authorized
dealer or a reputable service facility about conversion procedures. Many
manufacturers have made retrofit guidelines available.
To convert to R-134a, you will need at a minimum to change all the lubricant
to a PAG or POE (ester) oil, since R-134a is not compatible with mineral oil,
and you will have to put new fittings and a new label on the system. You may
also need to replace the accumulator or receiver/drier, and other components
of the system.
EPA rules require that any substitute only be used with fittings unique to
that refrigerant; that the person performing the conversion apply a specific
label to the system; and that the substitute not be used to "top-off" a system
that uses another refrigerant, without first extracting the old refrigerant.
Q: I have heard that R-134a does not cool nearly as well as CFC-12. Is this
true?
A: Vehicle manufacturers have designed air-conditioning systems for new
vehicles that use R-134a while maintaining reliability and cooling
performance. Conversion specifications for a/c units using R-134a are also
being designed to maintain performance, but this may vary depending on the
condition of the unit prior to the conversion, and on other factors. Should
you feel that your a/c system does not perform as well after converting to
R-134a, you should contact the vehicle manufacture and/or a reputable service
technician. They may be able to recommend further changes to the system so
that it performs to your satisfaction.
Q: Why can't I use R-22 in my system?
A: There are three good reasons not to use R-22 in your system.
First, R-22 is not compatible with the polymer and rubber products used in
vehicle a/c systems such as O-rings and hoses, and can cause these products to
det- eriorate. In addition, the small size of the molecules in R-22 often
causes the chemical to leak through hoses.
Second, R-22 has significantly higher operating pressures than R-12 -- at
normal atmospheric temper- atures, R-22 pressures can be double those of R-12.
Although R-134a also operates at higher pressures than R-12, the difference
in the pressures is much smaller than the difference between R-22 and R-12
operating pressures. The control circuits, evaporative assemblies, and other
components in a/c systems designed for use with R-12 may not be able to
withstand these higher pressures, and system failure may result.
Third, it's illegal. Any chemical proposed for use as a substitute to R-12
must first be submitted to EPA for review of its health and environmental
effects. If EPA determines that the chemical is safe for use in a particular
application, the chemical may then be used as a substitute for R-12. Until
that happens, it is illegal to use the substitute in that application. To
date, no one has submitted R-22 to EPA for review for automotive use (most
likely because of the other two reasons set forth above).
Q: Why does freon cost so much now? I used to purchase a can of freon for
$1.00.
A: The price of refrigerant has increased over the last few years largely
because of the tax on the production of ozone-depleting chemicals enacted by
Congress as part of the Omnibus Trade and Recon- ciliation Act of 1989. The
tax rates were increased by Congress in the Energy Policy Act of 1992. The
tax rate per pound of freon for 1995 is $5.35. This summer, freon is
retailing at auto parts stores and warehouse stores at about $7.00 per pound
(which includes the tax).
Q: I'm not convinced that R-12 and other chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs) are
responsible for the thinning of the ozone layer. I'm not even sure that the
ozone layer is really thinning. How can I find out more about these issues?
EPA has a great deal of information you can receive on these subjects by
calling the toll-free Ozone Protection Hotline number listed at the top of
this factsheet. This information includes a factsheet entitled "Ozone
Depletion: The Facts Behind the Phaseout" and a brochure entitled "Reports to
the Nation: Our Ozone Shield."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
END of EPA FARMERS.FCT file
--------
Comments from ghg on DIY recovery equipment.
Some easy ways to recover refrigerant are to take a recovery
cylinder (or even a propane BBQ grill tank - it is DOT legal)
and pull a vacuum on it just before the first use..
A "50lb" recovery cyl is the same size as the 20lb propane
BBQ grill tank. For these purposes, a 30lb recovery cylinder
would work better (dont use a DOT39 "throw away" refrigerant
cylinder). Get a Rubbermaid 5 gallon water cooler, and stick
the 30lb cylinder in it, and add dry ice around the edges..
This cools the cylinder so both R-12 and R-22 can be
removed, and it will draw a vacuum on the system if left
on long enough. If you can get it, liquid nitrogen works
nicely also (-312F). Both dry ice and liquid nitrogen
are very cold and can cause frostbite burns.. be careful.
Precooling a cylinder in a freezer is usually not sufficient,
it has to be colder than -21F to extract a charge
from an R-12 system down to 0 PSIG. THe cylinder will
warm up as the charge is removed...
Wrapping a recovery cylinder with slightly flattened 3/8"
copper tubing (on the outside), slowly venting liquid CO2
through the tubing would also be cold enough.
Although an extreme fire danger would result, venting
liquid propane in the same setup to cool a recovery
cylinder would cool it enough for R-12 recovery
but not R-22 recovery (about -40F). Care must be
taken to remove the vented propane from the area with
a very long hose and/or burn it off (flare it) safely
at the release point to prevent a buildup of a "cloud"
of gas which would cause an explosion if ignited.
Don't try this one, unless you are already setup for
handling explosive gasses.
There are probably a zillion regulations with this option.
Be very careful not of "overfill" the cylinder, use scales
and dont exceed 70% of the "water capacity" (marked as WC),
typically a BBQ grill tank will be WC 47.7, subtract out
the tare weight (listed as TW), typically 12-13 lbs on
a BBQ grill tank. JC Whitney sells propane level gauges
which are temp strips which stick on the side of the tank,
pour hot water on it, and the liquid level becomes visible.
If the cylinder is overfilled, thermal expansion may result
in 100% liquid full, when the cylinder warms up, causing
the safety (popoff) to vent or the cylinder to explode.
--ghg
EPA is performing random inspections, responding to tips, and pursuing potential cases against violators. Under the Act, EPA is authorized to assess fines of up to $27,500 per day for any violation of these regulations. Information on selected enforcement actions is available in the enforcement section.
If you wish to report a possible violation of the Clean Air Act, please file a complaint form or contact the Ozone Hotline at 800-296-1996.
Subject: EPA Q & As on DIYers Fixed and Mobile A/C service (venting)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.tech,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Keywords: freon venting Clean-air-act $25,000-fine do-it-yourself
[Email exchange between Geo. Goble and Christine Dibble @ USEPA
regarding questions on DIYers (Do-it-Yourselfers), on venting
and other rules for Clean Air Act (CAA) part 608 (mostly stationary
refrigeration A/C) and part 609 Mobile MVAC A/C (cars, busses, tractors,
etc) EPA's replies are in UPPER CASE.. Also attached is an EPA
supplied Q & A factsheet (not in upper case) on DIYers, venting, etc..
Hopefully this should clear up many misconceptions.. --ghg]
From DIBBLE.CHRISTINE@EPAMAIL.EPA.GOV Sat Jul 15 09:59:30 1995
From: CHRISTINE DIBBLE <DIBBLE.CHRISTINE@EPAMAIL.EPA.GOV>
To: ghg@ecn.purdue.edu, LEVY.JEFFREY@EPAMAIL.EPA.GOV
Subject: CAA section 609 & DIYers.. -Reply
Status: R
SEE ANSWERS IN ALL CAPS WITHIN THE TEXT. ALSO SEE THE ATTACHMENT, A Q&A
FACTSHEET WHICH I JUST PREPARED FOR FARMERS AND OTHER DIY-ERS. THIS
FACTSHEET WAS SENT FOR DISTRIBUTION AND REPUBLICATION TO AUTO. PARTS
AND ACCESSORIES ASSN. AND TO MANY FARM TRADE ASSNS. SUCH AS NORTH
AMERICAN EQUIPMENT DEALERS AND FARM EQUIPMENT RETAILERS ASSN. ISN'T
THERE A COMEDIAN NAMED GEORGE GOBLE?
>>> George Goble <ghg@ecn.purdue.edu> 07/14/95 10:24am >>>
Jeff,
I get hounded a lot (on the net & email) from DIYers wanting to work on
cars (with R12)...
CAA section 609 "for consideration" which lets DIYers get away with not
having to have certified recovery equipment, etc...and reading recent
FAQs (made by others whom have talked to you
and the ozone hotline)..and my reading of section
609 + Fedr Reg. updates, etc.. It is still not
completely clear on 609 DIYers and the "venting" situation..
Section 608 is very clear on not venting Class I or II and cert
needed to do everything.. (service, repair, disposal, etc)
on 609.. some say DIY venting is OK?? and others say something to
the effect, that no "certified" recovery equipment is needed, but it
is not legal for DIYers to vent classI or II and they must come up
with some means to achieve 4" vac in a system and capture
the charge...(for class I and II)
Wondered if you could clarify this when you have time (no hurry)?
NO VENTING ALLOWED BY
ANYONE AT ANYTIME! DIY-ERS DO NOT NEED TO USE CERTIFIED EQUIPMENT
HOWEVER. DIY-ERS CAN USE ANY PIECE OF HOMEMADE EQUIPMENT, JUST SO LONG
AS THEY DON'T VENT. THE EQUIPMENT DOES NOT HAVE TO ACHIEVE A 4-INCH
VACUUM. WHO HAS TO USE EQUIPMENT THAT ACHIEVES A 4-INCH (102 MM) VACUUM?
1. TECHNICIANS WHO PURCHASED 608 EQUIPMENT PRIOR TO 11/15/93, AND
2. ANYONE WHO RECOVERS REFRIGERANT FROM AN MVAC OR MVAC-LIKE APPLIANCE
(SUCH AS HEAVY CONSTRUCTION EQUIPMENT, FARM EQUIPMENT ETC.) THAT IS
DESTINED FOR DISPOSAL.
---
Also after Nov 15, 1995 it becomes illegal to vent "substitutes"
for class I & II (mostly HFCs) unless the EPA determines that each
substance poses no threat and can be vented...
So this means R-134a must be recovered at that point. This is clear.
If one runs into system charged with propane (R22 replacement)or
OZ-12, total hydrocarbon refrigerants 0.0 ODP, can these be vented
after Nov 15?
NO, UNDER 609, NO SUBSTITUTES FOR R-12 IN AN MVAC CAN BE VENTED, SO OZ-12
CANNOT BE VENTED. UNDER 608, NO SUBSTITUTES FOR ANY CLASS I OR II
SUBSTANCE CAN BE VENTED.
thanks..
Have a good day
--ghg
-----------------------------------------------------
FARMER.FCT file (wordperfect) converted to plain txt
From Christine Dibble @ the USEPA.
----
United States Office of Air and Radiation July 1995
Environmental Protection Stratospheric Protection Division
Agency 6205J
__________________________________________________ ________________________
Qs & As FOR FARMERS AND DO-IT-YOURSELF-ERS ON MOTOR VEHICLE
AIRCONDITIONING AND THE CFC-12 PRODUCTION BAN
OZONE PROTECTION HOTLINE TOLL-FREE (800) 296-1996
10 A.M.--4 P.M., MON.-FRI. EST
Q:Is it true that I have to become a certified technician and purchase
approved recycling equipment in order to work on my own motor vehicle's air
conditioning system?
A: No. Under Section 609 of the Clean Air Act, only people who repair or
service air conditioning systems for consideration -- that is, for payment,
whether it is monetary or some other form -- are required to be properly
certified and to use equipment approved by the Environmental Protection
Agency. That means that a do-it-yourselfer (DIYer) can work on his own car
without being certified or having to buy recovery or recycling equipment.
Like service technicians, DIYers are not permitted to vent freon (R-12
refrigerant) from an a/c system. Beginning on November 15, 1995, it will also
be illegal for anyone to vent R-134a, or any other R-12 substitute.
In addition, only certified technicians may purchase R-12. The EPA has not
yet decided whether sales of R-134a will be restricted to certified
technicians only. This decision should be made by November, 1995.
Q: How do I comply with the law and service a/c systems on a tractor, or a
car that is up on blocks, or any other vehicle that is difficult to move to a
service facility?
A: Topping Off. A farmer or other DIYer must become a certified technician in
order to purchase freon to "top off" his own tractor, truck or other vehicle.
If he becomes certified, he can purchase any size container of refrigerant and
perform the topping off himself. Of course, farmers and DIYers should take
all reasonable steps to avoid the release of refrigerant when topping off a
system. Intentional venting is illegal, but should not normally occur during
the topping off procedure if it is done properly.
Other Servicing. Should a farmer or other DIYer wish to do more than merely
top off, such as replace leaky or worn out components of an a/c system, then
in order to avoid venting refrigerant when opening up the a/c system, the
farmer or DIYer must make sure that the refrigerant gets recovered first. The
refrigerant does not need to be extracted into EPA-approved recover/ recycling
equipment -- it can be extracted into homemade equipment, for example -- but
it must not be vented! Venting refrigerant can lead to fines of $25,000 per
violation.
If the farmer or DIYer does not own recovery equipment, he can drive the
vehicle to a service facility, or hire a certified technician who has
recover/recycle equipment to come to the vehicle and service it.
Q: Apart from R-134a, what are some other refrigerants approved by EPA? Do I
need to be certified to purchase them or install them in my vehicle's a/c
system? Are there refrigerants that EPA considers unacceptable?
A: EPA has approved R-134a and FRIGC*, a blend manufactured by Intermagnetics
General Corporation of Latham, New York. FRIGC's manufacturer has informed
EPA that FRIGC will initially be marketed for use in vehicle fleets only.
Only certified technicians may purchase FRIGC, since it contains a chemical
that depletes the ozone layer (although it does far less damage than R-12).
You can call the Ozone Hotline in order to determine if other substitutes are
approved by EPA in the future.
Two refrigerants, OZ-12 and HC-12a, have been declared unacceptable by EPA,
because of unanswered flammability concerns. It is illegal to use these
refrigerants. They are both manufactured by OZ Technology, Inc. of Post
Falls, Idaho. EPA has also stated that all flammable substitutes are
unacceptable for use in vehicle a/c conversions.
Q: I'm not a certified technician and so I cannot purchase R-12. I've been
thinking about converting my motor vehicle air-conditioning system to use
R-134a, since I can purchase that refrigerant. What facts should I know
before I convert?
A: First, EPA may restrict the sale of R-134a to certified technicians only.
The proposed rule which would contain this provision (should EPA decide to
propose a sales restriction) should be published in August, and, after thirty
days of taking comment from the public, the final rule should be published in
November. Check with the Ozone Hotline after the publication of the proposal
to see if the sales restriction provision is contained in the proposed rule.
If the provision becomes part of the final rule, then sales of R-134a will be
limited to certified technicians shortly after publication of the rule.
EPA recommends that you consult your vehicle manufacturer, an authorized
dealer or a reputable service facility about conversion procedures. Many
manufacturers have made retrofit guidelines available.
To convert to R-134a, you will need at a minimum to change all the lubricant
to a PAG or POE (ester) oil, since R-134a is not compatible with mineral oil,
and you will have to put new fittings and a new label on the system. You may
also need to replace the accumulator or receiver/drier, and other components
of the system.
EPA rules require that any substitute only be used with fittings unique to
that refrigerant; that the person performing the conversion apply a specific
label to the system; and that the substitute not be used to "top-off" a system
that uses another refrigerant, without first extracting the old refrigerant.
Q: I have heard that R-134a does not cool nearly as well as CFC-12. Is this
true?
A: Vehicle manufacturers have designed air-conditioning systems for new
vehicles that use R-134a while maintaining reliability and cooling
performance. Conversion specifications for a/c units using R-134a are also
being designed to maintain performance, but this may vary depending on the
condition of the unit prior to the conversion, and on other factors. Should
you feel that your a/c system does not perform as well after converting to
R-134a, you should contact the vehicle manufacture and/or a reputable service
technician. They may be able to recommend further changes to the system so
that it performs to your satisfaction.
Q: Why can't I use R-22 in my system?
A: There are three good reasons not to use R-22 in your system.
First, R-22 is not compatible with the polymer and rubber products used in
vehicle a/c systems such as O-rings and hoses, and can cause these products to
det- eriorate. In addition, the small size of the molecules in R-22 often
causes the chemical to leak through hoses.
Second, R-22 has significantly higher operating pressures than R-12 -- at
normal atmospheric temper- atures, R-22 pressures can be double those of R-12.
Although R-134a also operates at higher pressures than R-12, the difference
in the pressures is much smaller than the difference between R-22 and R-12
operating pressures. The control circuits, evaporative assemblies, and other
components in a/c systems designed for use with R-12 may not be able to
withstand these higher pressures, and system failure may result.
Third, it's illegal. Any chemical proposed for use as a substitute to R-12
must first be submitted to EPA for review of its health and environmental
effects. If EPA determines that the chemical is safe for use in a particular
application, the chemical may then be used as a substitute for R-12. Until
that happens, it is illegal to use the substitute in that application. To
date, no one has submitted R-22 to EPA for review for automotive use (most
likely because of the other two reasons set forth above).
Q: Why does freon cost so much now? I used to purchase a can of freon for
$1.00.
A: The price of refrigerant has increased over the last few years largely
because of the tax on the production of ozone-depleting chemicals enacted by
Congress as part of the Omnibus Trade and Recon- ciliation Act of 1989. The
tax rates were increased by Congress in the Energy Policy Act of 1992. The
tax rate per pound of freon for 1995 is $5.35. This summer, freon is
retailing at auto parts stores and warehouse stores at about $7.00 per pound
(which includes the tax).
Q: I'm not convinced that R-12 and other chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs) are
responsible for the thinning of the ozone layer. I'm not even sure that the
ozone layer is really thinning. How can I find out more about these issues?
EPA has a great deal of information you can receive on these subjects by
calling the toll-free Ozone Protection Hotline number listed at the top of
this factsheet. This information includes a factsheet entitled "Ozone
Depletion: The Facts Behind the Phaseout" and a brochure entitled "Reports to
the Nation: Our Ozone Shield."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
END of EPA FARMERS.FCT file
--------
Comments from ghg on DIY recovery equipment.
Some easy ways to recover refrigerant are to take a recovery
cylinder (or even a propane BBQ grill tank - it is DOT legal)
and pull a vacuum on it just before the first use..
A "50lb" recovery cyl is the same size as the 20lb propane
BBQ grill tank. For these purposes, a 30lb recovery cylinder
would work better (dont use a DOT39 "throw away" refrigerant
cylinder). Get a Rubbermaid 5 gallon water cooler, and stick
the 30lb cylinder in it, and add dry ice around the edges..
This cools the cylinder so both R-12 and R-22 can be
removed, and it will draw a vacuum on the system if left
on long enough. If you can get it, liquid nitrogen works
nicely also (-312F). Both dry ice and liquid nitrogen
are very cold and can cause frostbite burns.. be careful.
Precooling a cylinder in a freezer is usually not sufficient,
it has to be colder than -21F to extract a charge
from an R-12 system down to 0 PSIG. THe cylinder will
warm up as the charge is removed...
Wrapping a recovery cylinder with slightly flattened 3/8"
copper tubing (on the outside), slowly venting liquid CO2
through the tubing would also be cold enough.
Although an extreme fire danger would result, venting
liquid propane in the same setup to cool a recovery
cylinder would cool it enough for R-12 recovery
but not R-22 recovery (about -40F). Care must be
taken to remove the vented propane from the area with
a very long hose and/or burn it off (flare it) safely
at the release point to prevent a buildup of a "cloud"
of gas which would cause an explosion if ignited.
Don't try this one, unless you are already setup for
handling explosive gasses.
There are probably a zillion regulations with this option.
Be very careful not of "overfill" the cylinder, use scales
and dont exceed 70% of the "water capacity" (marked as WC),
typically a BBQ grill tank will be WC 47.7, subtract out
the tare weight (listed as TW), typically 12-13 lbs on
a BBQ grill tank. JC Whitney sells propane level gauges
which are temp strips which stick on the side of the tank,
pour hot water on it, and the liquid level becomes visible.
If the cylinder is overfilled, thermal expansion may result
in 100% liquid full, when the cylinder warms up, causing
the safety (popoff) to vent or the cylinder to explode.
--ghg
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Blacknight117
Honda Civic / Del Sol (1992 - 2000)
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Aug 15, 2011 07:48 PM
