Warming up a car - a myth?
04-14-2005, 07:10 AM
#1
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Warming up a car - a myth?
Hi guys,
I remember in the old days when cars has no chips in them, where we use carburetors, it is a generally accepted fact that you have to warm up the car for 5 mins or so (maybe quicker in tropical area)
But is this still true for today's cars? Someone told me that you don't need to warm up your car for more than 10 seconds, because:
1. The ECU can control the amount of fuel injected and/or ignition during cold temperature (this is why the idle rpm is also varied during warm up time)
2. The 10 seconds is just to circulate the oil within the engine components
3. Assuming of course you are not drag racing your car to the redline rpm's
If anyone disagrees, can you help explain to me why we still need to warm up the car? until what temperature? What is the purpose of the warm-up?
I remember in the old days when cars has no chips in them, where we use carburetors, it is a generally accepted fact that you have to warm up the car for 5 mins or so (maybe quicker in tropical area)
But is this still true for today's cars? Someone told me that you don't need to warm up your car for more than 10 seconds, because:
1. The ECU can control the amount of fuel injected and/or ignition during cold temperature (this is why the idle rpm is also varied during warm up time)
2. The 10 seconds is just to circulate the oil within the engine components
3. Assuming of course you are not drag racing your car to the redline rpm's
If anyone disagrees, can you help explain to me why we still need to warm up the car? until what temperature? What is the purpose of the warm-up?
04-14-2005, 07:36 AM
#3
Re: Warming up a car - a myth? (elpiar)
Even back in the day, it was a myth or at least a misunderstanding. If your carburator was really set up well, it would be OK to drive off. Just don't hammer it until the oil was warmed up.
Many carburators were really poor at controlling AF ratio when they're cold (even set up as good as possible). So it depended more on whether it actually worked without stalling.
OTOH, you DO have to wait until you can see thru the frosted windows...
Many carburators were really poor at controlling AF ratio when they're cold (even set up as good as possible). So it depended more on whether it actually worked without stalling.
OTOH, you DO have to wait until you can see thru the frosted windows...
04-14-2005, 07:42 AM
#4
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Re: Warming up a car - a myth? (JimBlake)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JimBlake »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Even back in the day, it was a myth or at least a misunderstanding. If your carburator was really set up well, it would be OK to drive off. Just don't hammer it until the oil was warmed up.
Many carburators were really poor at controlling AF ratio when they're cold (even set up as good as possible). So it depended more on whether it actually worked without stalling.
OTOH, you DO have to wait until you can see thru the frosted windows...</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yes, I agree with you. If the carburetors are not giving enough fuel, it will stall, and in a sense running a little lean can damage your engine.
Someone mentioned oil temperature. I guess in the winter maybe this is worth waiting, if the oil is too cold it might be too thick to give good lubrication to the pistons and other components.
Any other opinions?
Many carburators were really poor at controlling AF ratio when they're cold (even set up as good as possible). So it depended more on whether it actually worked without stalling.
OTOH, you DO have to wait until you can see thru the frosted windows...</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yes, I agree with you. If the carburetors are not giving enough fuel, it will stall, and in a sense running a little lean can damage your engine.
Someone mentioned oil temperature. I guess in the winter maybe this is worth waiting, if the oil is too cold it might be too thick to give good lubrication to the pistons and other components.
Any other opinions?
04-14-2005, 07:48 AM
#5
Re: Warming up a car - a myth? (elpiar)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by elpiar »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Someone mentioned oil temperature. I guess in the winter maybe this is worth waiting, if the oil is too cold it might be too thick to give good lubrication to the pistons and other components.</TD></TR></TABLE>That part's true today, just like it was in 1965. When it's that cold, it takes a couple minutes to scrape the snow/frost off your windows, so it kinda works out good. Then you just drive gently until it's warmed up.
04-14-2005, 07:55 AM
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Re: Warming up a car - a myth? (elpiar)
warm up your car is good for the oil pressure but as long as your not beating on it a 1 min warm up is more than plenty in the summer time, however engines do like being wormed up on my katana gsx600f if you dont warm up the engine have fun launching.
04-14-2005, 09:40 AM
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Re: Warming up a car - a myth? (teler86)
i warm up about 2-3 minutes even in the summer. i let it idle the whole time. after that, i drive under 3000rpm for another 3-5 minutes. my block is stock w/ 176k miles, and warming up IMO will allow the pistons to expand into the walls a little more. it won't be stock for too much longer, but even after the new block is broken in, i'll still use my warm-up procedure for two reasons:
1) allow all engine components to warm up to optimum operating temperature
2) better safe than sorry. this car needs to last me about 8-10 years, so even if there's a tiny bit of added life i can get from this, i'll do it.
however, i will not sacrifice having fun with the car for lifespan of the engine. the way i see it, gas prices are going up and it won't be long until we can't afford to have fun with our cars. better practice mass hooliganism now while we still can! haha
1) allow all engine components to warm up to optimum operating temperature
2) better safe than sorry. this car needs to last me about 8-10 years, so even if there's a tiny bit of added life i can get from this, i'll do it.
however, i will not sacrifice having fun with the car for lifespan of the engine. the way i see it, gas prices are going up and it won't be long until we can't afford to have fun with our cars. better practice mass hooliganism now while we still can! haha
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04-14-2005, 12:49 PM
#9
Mad Scientist
Re: (b.somethin)
and what about ignition event?
ignition will not be the same when the motor is cold as opposed when warm.
when the engine is cold the fuel has a way harder time atomizing with the air; thats why cold enrichment exists.droplets/puddles and such
flame front would be slower since everything is cold and i guess not as efficient as when warm
ignition will not be the same when the motor is cold as opposed when warm.
when the engine is cold the fuel has a way harder time atomizing with the air; thats why cold enrichment exists.droplets/puddles and such
flame front would be slower since everything is cold and i guess not as efficient as when warm
04-14-2005, 01:08 PM
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Re: (mmuller)
i was under the impression that you should still let a car run for a little while to get the oil up to temperature, at which point it will lubricate better(as long as its not too old and broken down).
for n/a cars i dont think warm up is too big of a deal, although i used to let my car run for a few at least till the coolant temp came up a little before i hammerd the gas. i gotta wait a lil while longer now with forced induction, as to let the oil get up into the turbo (usually around 160* F ), then i ****** let it all out
for n/a cars i dont think warm up is too big of a deal, although i used to let my car run for a few at least till the coolant temp came up a little before i hammerd the gas. i gotta wait a lil while longer now with forced induction, as to let the oil get up into the turbo (usually around 160* F ), then i ****** let it all out
04-14-2005, 04:26 PM
#11
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Re: (mmuller)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mmuller »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> and what about ignition event?
ignition will not be the same when the motor is cold as opposed when warm.
when the engine is cold the fuel has a way harder time atomizing with the air; thats why cold enrichment exists.droplets/puddles and such
flame front would be slower since everything is cold and i guess not as efficient as when warm</TD></TR></TABLE>
That's what I'm saying. Today's car has a way to tell that the engine is cold (coolant temp and intake air temp) and will compensate with the ignition. So we don't need to wait 5-7 mins like some people do (they wait till the coolant temp start rising...geezz that's a looongg time).
ignition will not be the same when the motor is cold as opposed when warm.
when the engine is cold the fuel has a way harder time atomizing with the air; thats why cold enrichment exists.droplets/puddles and such
flame front would be slower since everything is cold and i guess not as efficient as when warm</TD></TR></TABLE>
That's what I'm saying. Today's car has a way to tell that the engine is cold (coolant temp and intake air temp) and will compensate with the ignition. So we don't need to wait 5-7 mins like some people do (they wait till the coolant temp start rising...geezz that's a looongg time).
04-14-2005, 04:28 PM
#12
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Re: (b.somethin)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by b.somethin »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the question is do you like to be woken up to do a 5 mile run???? i dont think cars like to either</TD></TR></TABLE>
I was expecting some scientific reasons
The whole point of technology is to have tools we can abuse and still work reliably, unlike our bodies.
I was expecting some scientific reasons
The whole point of technology is to have tools we can abuse and still work reliably, unlike our bodies.
04-14-2005, 04:34 PM
#13
Mad Scientist
Re: (elpiar)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by elpiar »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">That's what I'm saying. Today's car has a way to tell that the engine is cold (coolant temp and intake air temp) and will compensate with the ignition. So we don't need to wait 5-7 mins like some people do (they wait till the coolant temp start rising...geezz that's a looongg time).</TD></TR></TABLE>
what im trying to say is that the car will not run at its fullest extent when cold. per reasons explained above.
the ecu compensates for fuel and such when cold start so that the car will run ok not so that it will run like at operating temperature.. it adds more fuel so that there is a more complete burn, its still handicapped though
what im trying to say is that the car will not run at its fullest extent when cold. per reasons explained above.
the ecu compensates for fuel and such when cold start so that the car will run ok not so that it will run like at operating temperature.. it adds more fuel so that there is a more complete burn, its still handicapped though
04-14-2005, 04:46 PM
#14
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Re: Warming up a car - a myth? (95lstegman)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 95lstegman »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ithe way i see it, gas prices are going up and it won't be long until we can't afford to have fun with our cars. better practice mass hooliganism now while we still can! haha
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Gas prices can only go so high. Big Oil will not let them get TOO high for a VERY good reason: if gas gets too high, alternatives become more feasible. Alternatives, I might add, that could very well put them out of business. Once the alternatives 'get their foot in the door' and establish themselves, the cost of such fuels will come down and render petroleum-based fuels obsolete. And Big Oil does NOT want this to happen. This is why you won't see $5/gallon gas (at least in the US).
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Gas prices can only go so high. Big Oil will not let them get TOO high for a VERY good reason: if gas gets too high, alternatives become more feasible. Alternatives, I might add, that could very well put them out of business. Once the alternatives 'get their foot in the door' and establish themselves, the cost of such fuels will come down and render petroleum-based fuels obsolete. And Big Oil does NOT want this to happen. This is why you won't see $5/gallon gas (at least in the US).
04-14-2005, 05:12 PM
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Re: Warming up a car - a myth? (StorminMatt)
still, come on, $5/gal? geez, i mean, when i'm dirty with my N/A LS, i get no more than 12mi/gal, sometimes 8mi/gal. that's a lot of money for some backroad twisting and winding fun. besides, they pay about $12-$14/gal in europe and such.
and yes, in many cases, a car's engine is like a person. you work it hard, it will provide less and less work over time until it's just dead. it performs better when excercised regularly, and will last a long time if you treat it just so-so, but it will last significantly longer with proper care, nutrition, if you will, and maintenance.
i think there must be some small positive affect on an engine that is allowed to warm up for a few minutes. such as warming up the oil, warming up the rotating assembly and valvetrain, warming the transmission fluid some, and/or perhaps allowing any small shavings from the engine or transmission to be sucked through the filter (in the engine, or attatched to the magnet in the tranny). BTW, i run two very powerful but not very big magnets on my oil filter. i'll cut it open next oil change and show you guys how much crap there is floating around. 176k miles, BTW.
and yes, in many cases, a car's engine is like a person. you work it hard, it will provide less and less work over time until it's just dead. it performs better when excercised regularly, and will last a long time if you treat it just so-so, but it will last significantly longer with proper care, nutrition, if you will, and maintenance.
i think there must be some small positive affect on an engine that is allowed to warm up for a few minutes. such as warming up the oil, warming up the rotating assembly and valvetrain, warming the transmission fluid some, and/or perhaps allowing any small shavings from the engine or transmission to be sucked through the filter (in the engine, or attatched to the magnet in the tranny). BTW, i run two very powerful but not very big magnets on my oil filter. i'll cut it open next oil change and show you guys how much crap there is floating around. 176k miles, BTW.
04-14-2005, 06:17 PM
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Re: Warming up a car - a myth? (95lstegman)
Warm it up 10 or so seconds as mentioned for the reasons mentioned. For people saying you should warm it up until the coolant reaches OT for efficiency: how many MPG are you getting idling in your driveway? 0. The fastest/best way to warm up the coolant/oil resulting in the highest efficiency is to drive it conservatively until it reaches OT.
If you are concerned that warming up your engine the wrong way decreases engine life, you should be more concerned about where the oil is when you turn the key. On oil changes, fill the new filter with oil. If you're an extremist, buy a type of oil that is proported to stay where it should be and not drip down into the pan when you shut the car off for an extended period. Look into oil system mods.
If you are concerned that warming up your engine the wrong way decreases engine life, you should be more concerned about where the oil is when you turn the key. On oil changes, fill the new filter with oil. If you're an extremist, buy a type of oil that is proported to stay where it should be and not drip down into the pan when you shut the car off for an extended period. Look into oil system mods.
04-14-2005, 06:40 PM
#17
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Re: Warming up a car - a myth? (shaundrake)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by shaundrake »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Warm it up 10 or so seconds as mentioned for the reasons mentioned. For people saying you should warm it up until the coolant reaches OT for efficiency: how many MPG are you getting idling in your driveway? 0. The fastest/best way to warm up the coolant/oil resulting in the highest efficiency is to drive it conservatively until it reaches OT.
If you are concerned that warming up your engine the wrong way decreases engine life, you should be more concerned about where the oil is when you turn the key. On oil changes, fill the new filter with oil. If you're an extremist, buy a type of oil that is proported to stay where it should be and not drip down into the pan when you shut the car off for an extended period. Look into oil system mods.</TD></TR></TABLE>
can't agree more...
If you are concerned that warming up your engine the wrong way decreases engine life, you should be more concerned about where the oil is when you turn the key. On oil changes, fill the new filter with oil. If you're an extremist, buy a type of oil that is proported to stay where it should be and not drip down into the pan when you shut the car off for an extended period. Look into oil system mods.</TD></TR></TABLE>
can't agree more...
04-14-2005, 07:15 PM
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Re: Warming up a car - a myth? (elpiar)
i have looked into oil system mods, but most decent oils stick to the engine parts just fine for me. i mean, it does last 200k miles. and besides, it's not much of a waste of gas. it takes very little. as i said, i don't worry about fuel economy at all. but i will when gas prices get more out of hand. have your fun now, and cheers; bottom is almost up.
04-14-2005, 09:34 PM
#19
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I've always been of the opinion that properly warming up a motor is necessary for the correct operating clearances for the internals. The clearances are different when warm as opposed to when cold. Engines are built to certain tolerances when cold in anticipation of them becoming ideal when the motor reaches the correct operating temperature.
04-15-2005, 04:08 AM
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Re: (rjay8604)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Kendall »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I've always been of the opinion that properly warming up a motor is necessary for the correct operating clearances for the internals. The clearances are different when warm as opposed to when cold. Engines are built to certain tolerances when cold in anticipation of them becoming ideal when the motor reaches the correct operating temperature.</TD></TR></TABLE>
thanks. i think you hit on what i was trying to say all along. it was somewhere in my head, but it was trapped in my thick skull
thanks. i think you hit on what i was trying to say all along. it was somewhere in my head, but it was trapped in my thick skull
04-15-2005, 09:10 AM
#22
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Re: (95lstegman)
All he's saying is that the motor isn't the same shape when its cold. We all know that; the question is what is the best way to warm up the motor.
04-16-2005, 06:38 AM
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Re: (shaundrake)
idling for 3 minutes should be the best way. you're putting the engine parts through the fewest number of revolutions before it has a chance to warm up. i think i've settled on 3 minutes. i actually wait until the water temperature needle is no longer touching any part of the C bar.
05-08-2006, 11:49 PM
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Re: (95lstegman)
sorry to ressurect such an old thread but i was also wondering about this 'myth'
the reason so..is that i recently got a complaint from a neighbor that my car is too noisy when i warm up in the morning..i live in CA..so its not as critical that i warm up like people in those colder states..nontheless..i believe it helps..alot actually..an engine was meant to perform at its proper engine temp..so from now on..i'll be turning on the car..rolling slowly down the street in 1st gear and warming it up for my 3-4 minute warm up at the corner hahaha
the reason so..is that i recently got a complaint from a neighbor that my car is too noisy when i warm up in the morning..i live in CA..so its not as critical that i warm up like people in those colder states..nontheless..i believe it helps..alot actually..an engine was meant to perform at its proper engine temp..so from now on..i'll be turning on the car..rolling slowly down the street in 1st gear and warming it up for my 3-4 minute warm up at the corner hahaha
