if you are replacing or changing out cams, be sure to torque the
cam caps to spec, and if you are changing sprockets, be sure
to torque the sprockets down to the right setting... if not, a
frozen cam will result. this happened to me tonight at idle the
engine sunk down and quit. the intake cam seized. my tech
thinks he can save the cams and head... but if not I will have
to aquire a new head and CTR cams!!!

Be careful!

 

How long did you have your cams and stuff on your head before it froze?

 

As stated above, very true.

Did you remember to use assembly lube also? Just oil doesn't cut it.

How did you manage not to tighten down the cam caps properly and to spec? And didn't you spin the engine by hand first to make sure no binding occurs? I know when I do the cams, I always spin the engine by hand, because that's the only way to properly take up the belt slack, and to check cam to crank timing marks.

 

yea, it was back together for about 800 miles. Upon first cranking it over, I noticed a knocking sound... I thought it was bottom end damage from the overrev... but it smoothed over when it warmed up. It overheated instantly, I found the thermostat to be the culprit and removed it. I was driging the car after that and the first 50 miles in, it was a S2000 KILLING BEAST. After this, I noticed the knocking sound coming from the engine... it got louder!!! I then decided I was on a no vtec diet. One of the wrong things I did was I made the timing belt too tight, that with the combination with the cam bearing caps being too tight, forcefully tightened... etc.
I was experiencing this knock which was/is very puzzling. We ruled out any possibility of it being a rodbearing as it is coming from the side of the motor around the belts. I was lucky.... SOOOO very lucky that the engine was spinning
at 500-600 rpm when the cam seized. It was idling and my buddy and I were just finished retensioning the belt proper (he is a tech, gets paid to call himself a master honda/acura tech and work on cars all day. put it this way: he is the one that gets to work on the NSXs when they get unhappy) so he made the belt happy and I know the best way now to do so in the future. we were about to hit the ale house for a few beers. he washed his hands and I went inside, I came back out while the car sat at idle. While I walked out there, I heard it go ... normal idle... lower... lower... lower... flywheel clack... clakkk... stop. I tried re-starting it and all I heard was the starter gear going GGGGGGGGGGGGGGEEEEK and no start. he came out and asked me what happened and I was like... bro... it just ... stopped! HE was like... I bet you the cam froze... and sure enough... this is where I spilled my guts when he asked if THE CAMS, KEEPERS AND SPROCKETS WERE TORQUED TO SPEC... and I had to say DuH>? ...no... "that would have been a bit of useful information to have before we started... no?" hehe... we just laughed

We left the bottom half in place it was at about 337/360deg or "BDC" on the intake stroke about to come back up. We took off the timing belt; the exhaust cam was free and the intake was frozen. Fortunately, the exhaust valves were shut at this point on the stroke and these are the ones we really need to be weary of. The intake valves open at approx 158 (162 or 18 BTDC) /360 crank degrees at +4. The intake cam jumped about 3 teeth cuz it was froze and the exhaust cam tracked with the crank. LUCKY ME. When we de-tensioned the belt and pulled out the cams, there were noticable gauges in the cam bearing journal on cyl#1, and #2 most noticably on one. the cam itself wasnt as bad as the keeper and the head. the exhaust cam had this problem only on cyl#1 and mild scarring on #2. We are going to attempt to ressurect this motor tomorrow with a dremel tool and some emery cloth; try and polish the parts back up. My buddy says that he repaired much worse motor damage in the military and on his own car, he had a turbo eclipse that a cam froze in the middle of racing it. thats when he learned that torque settings are as crucial as they are. he says that he ressurected that motor and sees no reason why this one cant be saved as well. if not, I have a line on a GSR head for 750 and I can get CTR/ITR cams second hand for about 300. damn I sure dont want to spend another 1500 to get my **** back on the road with machinework! I have my GSR cams in the meantime also if push comes to shove. I just rebuilt this head, ITR intake valves with a 3 angle valve job & 2 on seat, endyn ss 28.5mm exhaust valves... portflow/itr yellow outer spring setup with skunk retainers, cam gears... CTR/ITR cams... THIS WAS A BAD BITCH... the timing belt system started making a knocking sound and we think that this is now attributed to the improper torquing of the keepers, cam gears and improper tensioning on the belt. ALL WRONG!!! This was me trying to save some money by pulling the head/reinstalling myself after overreving the bitch from 3rd to 2nd gear at 90MPH. At least I torqued the head blots... damn I may just check those while I am at it!!!!

DAMN!
all I know I will feel alot better when we pressure test the valves and that comes out ok. at 335deg (BDC)/360, and a 4deg advance, (339) the cam is looking to close the intake valves anyway. I think I am about 25 crank angle degrees away from nailing my intake valves... which would be unlikely but as long as I am trying to find consolation until I can turn over the car again... whew... I am going to do my best to do so! since the cams are out, at least the valves are shut and I cant hurt them right now... my car hates me!!!

Wish me luck, will post results of tomorrow evening's work here...

Mike In Orlando

I have faith we can do it!




[Modified by MikeSarr_GSR, 10:35 AM 5/8/2002]

 

yea it gets worse... read on...

nope, assy lube wasnt in my vocabulary then... DOH! My buddy will be
bringing some home from the shop tomorrow... I also made one of the
bearing caps reversed... dont mind me... doing head installs at wee
hours of the morning wont be done again... no doubt


[Modified by MikeSarr_GSR, 10:25 AM 5/8/2002]

 

ahh dude!! lube!!!!! lubrication is one of the most important aspects of putting together any moving parts!

 

Hm...a little off your topic, but whenever i warm up my car it makes a clacking noise, and it goes away. It seems to be due to the valvetrain. It goes away after that. I have toda B's, is that normal? I've also gone 1200 miles with them in and tuned them at 900.

 

I would take apart my cam assy if I were you and
see if the bearing caps are starting to get torn
up, the clacking noise I am experiencing we believe
was due to the funny tq setting on the cam keepers...

dude, I was lucky if you are in the middle of revving
your motor and the a cam freezes...
say goodbye to your valves, cams etc
if thats the problem... please check if you arent sure!




[Modified by MikeSarr_GSR, 3:55 PM 5/8/2002]

 

Well i talked to my mechanic who installed it and he said the clacking noise is just the valve adjustment and that he tried to eliminate the sound as much as possible. That is the best he got it. It goes away after it warms up though...

 

same thing was happening to me. ask him if he torqued the cams in to spec...
specifically. also if the tensioner bolt was torqued... and if the deflection between the cams is the width of the inside of a 10mm wrench... i.e. not too tight...

 

holy smokes . i just put my reassembled overrevved head back together with the block and i didn't torque my cams down because i didn't have a inch/lbs wrench and i had to go drive to get one. i did use assembly lube. i did notice a weird clunking sound that i still have yet to find cause of after riding around for about 30 minutes. i didn't torque under the valve cover yet and not till morning because it's too late right now. i guess it hasn't seized yet. i will check it tommorrow and hope it's still ok...damn!

 

yea man, it will run for a while and then it will indeed freeze. if you are having a similar sound, remove the upper timing cover to access the belt. you will hear a knocking noise that resonates from the middle of the deck. you will notice that your exhaust gear will seem to spin out of round, intake would be planted and the crank pulley would seem to vibrate side to side at idle. this should not be. this is the timing belt forcing the cam through a damaged bearing cap. its a bitch because it will seem to go away, and when the engine cools off a bit... starting it back up will reveal the noise. it almost sounds like a rodbearing, yet more hollow sounding and more clappy than knocky if that makes sense. I drove my car like this for about a month... then the cam intake cam seized... I was on a NO VTEC diet also... my CTR cam... UGH. More on this in my next post... NO VTEC FOH YOU!




[Modified by MikeSarr_GSR, 11:52 AM 5/9/2002]

 

here's the outcome...

it worked. my engine is saved! the crank stopped at 335 or BDC with intake valves in 4 and exhaust valves in 1 open and the opposites shut with about 25 degrees before contact on the intake valve in #4. man was God ever in favor of me not
losing more money on my car... I made a great friend in the process that helped me ressurect it. we used emory paper and a socket and cleaned up the head bearing caps and journals, also the journals on the cam. we put them back on the head, torqued the 12mms to 20ft/lbs, 10mms to 8ft/lbs, cleaned everything up, primed it without the sparks for about 25 or so revolutions until the oil pressure light went off, then cranked it over. I drove it about 200 miles tonight like I hated it. I tried to brake it. I got my jollies on it. IT ASKED FOR MORE! The thing spins happier than a pinwheel on a rollercoaster. Or a dradle on xenedrine. Its wicked fast... and thats no exaggeration. I get 80 as fast as I was taggin 70 before with less effort. I have midrange, I have low end, I have power and torque to 8K. I can bark third gear without trying.

1999 B18C1 in Stocky Stock looking GSR Integra
My setup: +4,+3 (+3,+2 on gear with gasket/mill) 18BTDC, stock fuel psi
for now have B&M, need to install. 30 deg of overlap dialed into cams

CTR/ITR cams, skunk gears and ti retainers, 3 angle valve job,
ITR intake valves, Endyn SS 28.5mm exhaust valves, mildly
softened chamber, ports left unchanged, opened valve runners,
radiused them and added 2 angles on valve seat. Ported and Polished
GSR intake manifold and TB, bypassed coolant and installed Hondata
thermal break gasket, NGK wires, Denso IK20 Plugs, all new tune up stuff,
proper lashes recently reset (need to do again due to the cam seize/machining
of journals and keepers a bit loose), pcv breather break, mugen head
gasket with .0010" mill on head = .445mm gasket
effective 11.25:1 with valves, gasket/mill and increased overlap period
Modded Stock Intake for fresh air charge and Full Stock Exhaust, header
ports lifted 5mm, widened 2mm, Stock OBD2 P72ECU

To the dude with the trick B18B1, I hope this post was helpful to you and that you will be able to deduce your issue and make it work! Thanks be to God for helping me come to what seems to be the end of my upper half rebuild due to overrev!!!

I CAN SLEEP NOW!!!!

YEA!!!

 

thanks mike...yeah it does sound like a rod bearing or in the car sounds like a broken cv joint or something. thanks for the information. about to go check it out and hopefully resolve this.

 

I hope it works out for ya man, please inspect those cams dude... I would hate
to see you lose your head... literally. I was 25 degrees on the crank from losing valves!!!!! changed the oil today, there was cam bearing and cap/head aluminum in the tray... to be expected... I drained, ran the oil through a rag, filled, ran, drained... repeat X 4. the amount of metal was significantly reduced each time. When there was alittle for all I knew I could have been there all day, I installed 5-30W mobil one and called it done for a thousand miles or so. I am going to drain it to check into a clean pan, and inspect it; run it through a rag and reinstall it. depending on how it looks I may take the cams off again and clean the caps and cam journals better if necessary. I dont want any other damage related to particles in the oil. I didnt see any rod bearing shavings in there thank god! for all practical purposes, my engine is off the injured list WOOOOO HOOOOOOOO!

expect 2nd iteration dyno numbers tomorrow night!!
I will only be tuning timing at a fixed +3,+2 setting
on cams, stock fuel pressure and stock GSR I,H,E.
I will hold off to tune cams on the dyno until I have
a better flowing exhaust, VAFC and B&M installed.
I will then tune the whole forking thing.
(comes with purchase of VAFC from my
guy...) gotta love that!!!!!

Anyone have a line on a cheap TypeR muffler and an
AEM CAI or Comptech intake with Ice Box?

Mike In Orlando




[Modified by MikeSarr_GSR, 8:09 AM 5/10/2002]

 

I know what you are going through man my friend fucked my car he thought he knew how to adjust my vavles and he poped out a rocker so we had to loosen the the cam to get it back in and then when he put the cam back in he over tightned the cam journals and broke alot of bolts

 

Hey man,

sorry to hear that brother. I hope that gets solved soon... be damn sure to torque those 12mms to 19-20 tl-lbs and the 10s to 8ft/lbs.

For those that are interested, I hit the dyno today and I was suprised to find that
I made little or no HP/TQ gains if not losses even the way it runs. I had no
thermostat in the car and as I thought and I was told would be, my engine
ran rich at about 13-12 across the entire range. Before it ran 14.7-13.5.
I just put one in and topped off my coolant to discover that my engine runs alot forking hotter than without the thermostat in it. Thank GOD for Mugen radiator caps that is all I have to say, this thing keeps tabs on overheating to a large degree. Before I removed an air pocket that I added when I replaced the thermostat, it got hot instantly upon driving it. I am like damn it here I go again. I drove it, brought it back and removed the cap while hot with a rag and sponge so I could get the air to escape. That ellievated most of the problem, I also discovered my fan switch doesnt respond with the TS in there so I had to bridge the fan switch connector. No biggie, so my fans are on all the damn time. If I drive and let it idle it stays relatively cool, but will get hot after 10 minutes of idling without the heater. I have honda 50/50 mix in there with alittle purple ice... I think I need more of that stuff for sure. I figure I can go with more water mixture and maybe make the coolant more efficient. I dumped my resivoir and filled it with distilled water, this will eventually make it through the system. IT seems to pull harder with the TS in there, supposedly the ECU pulls some timing back and dumps fuel when one is not in there.

I made 160/120 on the dyno at 0,0 cams without gasket compensation so an effective(-1%),+1. We tuned timing, 18BTDC and 38 total degrees advance. I think I may need an upgraded radiator.

Rolling back to 0,0 it revealed a dip when my vtec pressurizes. I have about 110 torque before 4500 and then it drops to 75 and spikes up to 120 at 5500 and tapers off to 100 by 8K. horsepower resembles the stock curve but peaked at
160 @ 7K and flattened to 8K without losing much. This morning before the dyno
I think I may have adjusted my valves too tight in a couple places. I felt a mechanical lag in the engine after I did them, but they were already warm and
didnt want to get back into the head after that. When I drive, I can feel that same lag I saw on the dyno. I suspect that I have some intake lashes at .0055"-006" which would be too tight, either way I am resetting them to i007", e008" deciding not to funk with the "more lift from tighter lashes theory." I want to clear up that dip. This wasnt there before this whole ordeal with the cam freezing to my knowledge. I also had +3,+2 in the cams and the power band was shifted on top of the vtec curve at 4K. I want to believe that it isnt a drop in oil pressure or insufficient oil pressure to float the vtec rockers at low rpm. I want to believe that it is first my lashes, having put in a thermostat it wont be an ECU problem. I am pretty sure that helped the AFR, but that drop is still there at 4500-5000. I only feel it in a high gear at WOT from 3-5K when I am TRYING to feel it. It isnt that much of a brick wall, the dyno seemed to make it more than what it was, actually. I also wasnt centered all the way on the dyno rollers. More than likey that is also an issue. my left wheel was square on axis and the right drive wheel was about 2" ahead of axis on the roller.

Tomorrow I will wake up and redo those tappets and in the afternoon, I have a date with the dyno again. I think 170/130 will be realistic once this is squared up
on stock ECU, fuel pressure, intake, header and exhaust dead 0,0 cams untuned.

Mike In Orlando