Hey guys. I wasn't sure this is the right section, but its not an engine build and its not strictly an engine management thing, so i put it here. I've been messing with cars since i was born, and I've spent quite a bit of time with the classic small block Chevy (carbourated, of course) but i need some help on a future project. i currently have an 89 civic si hatch with the 1.6 and a 5spd, no power anything, and will soon be getting a rolled 92 teg gsr. it has the b17 and the 5spd, power everything, etc. I'm planning on swapping the b17 into my civic, and need some quick answers. i want to rebuild the b17, maybe some upgrades, while i have it out of the car. i also want to keep the swap as cheap as possible, so my question is, if i do some upgrades (header, cam's, etc) will it need a retune in order to run correctly? and in case anyone is wondering why i decided to go with the b17, i'm getting it at a ridiculous price. thanks guys, don't flame the noob too much.

 

If you use the ECU from the teg then you wont need a retune as long as most internal parts are the same type (pistons, crank, rods, cams.) Intake, exhaust, header to me does not warrant a retune. But you are going to need some stuff to switch from the OBD0 in the civic to the OBD1 of the B17.

 

and what is OBD0? i was planning on using the ecu from the teg, thought it would be easier. but a cam would need a retune then? how much do those usually run? thanks for the help.

 

http://www.obd-codes.com/faq/what_is_obd.php
There are 3 version of OBD: 0, 1, 2

How much does what usually run? Cam or retune?

 

ah. i was talking about a retune. but what kind of stuff would i need to swap the OBD stuff? could i just put the stuff from the teg in? sorry, i really should try a search but i couldn't find a motor swap section or anything.

 

anyone? there's 300,000 members here, i'm sure someone is willing to help.

 

The 88-91 cars use OBD0 and 90-93 Integra use OBD1. What that mostly means is that all the plus to the sensors are going to be different. Someone may correct me, but I think as long as you get the wiring harness (from ECU to all the engine sensors) out of the 92 Integra, you will be fine.

 

u dont need a retune till u do major changes like incresing the strock or changing the compression ration or putting bigger pistons.even with the minor upgrades a retune will help but it will run fine without even bigger cams so 1st pick the parts and setup ur gonna go with or need advice on then post them up n the ht gurus will point u in the right direction use the ecu and wire harness from the teg

 

that makes sense. thanks guys, i'm sure i'll have more questions when i get to the swap.

 

welcome to honda-tech and the world of hondas

since you are getting a whole car, just use everything from it including the wire harness and ecu.

the b17 is not a popular engine because of its rarity and the fact the its not much different than a b16. but i do have some love for the b17, i think its very underated. i had a friend that had the EXACT same setup at you in a 90 si hatch with minor bolt ons. it was impressive for what it was. plus it's rare to see b17's around let alone swapped into something.

as far as bolt ons, i wouldn't go too far as to putting aftermarket cams in it, maybe get some newer b18c1 gsr cams and throw in it. then just do the basics. intake, header, exhaust and you shouldn't need a retune.

i must say though, as a v8 builder myself, the parts that make big power gains in v8's do not always work the same with honda engines. so my advice is don't go buying a set of cams with huge lift and duration for use with a otherwise stock engine

good luck, honda's are easy to build once you learn a little bit about them

 

thanks for the support. but if the standard v8 stuff doesn't make much power in honda's, what does? is FI basically the only option?

 

well think about it this way how much does a chevy make? and how much does it weigh???

how much does a honda make and how much does a honda weigh?

B-series with bolt ons are fun cars. if you want to win a drag race then you are going to have to go turbo. against say a mustang gt most b-series with some bolt ons will take one, but say if you wanted to play with a corvette you would need around 250 or more depending on the year and model of the vette.

its all up to you weather you want to make a drag car out of your honda or just something to have fun with and maybe a track car.

 

You have to consider that a DOHC VTEC engine is already fairly high strung from the factory. The engine you are getting makes 160 hp, or about 94 hp per liter. It also makes 118 ft-lb of torque, or 69 per liter. These number don't seem impressive until you do some math. If a Corvette Z06 made the same power per liter it would make over 650 hp and about 480 ft-lb. Everything has to be designed perfectly to make such a small engine produce these numbers. Factory cylinder heads flow 240 cfm on the intake side. The factory cams have 10.7 mm (.421 inch) of lift. To make these tiny engines significantly more powerful is a work of art, an expensive work of art.

 

bro do the basics larger exhaust headers, get rid of the stock intake system and get like a k&n, put a bigger throttle bodie (u could get a intake manifold but thats on u)

that will get it 2 breathe more and better

 

n/a honda's are becoming more common as FI is dying down, basically because n/a's are more reliable and can be just as fast as a Forced induction car with way less hp.

88Hatchy summed it up the best, alot of R&D goes into these motors.

i hear it all the time from muscleheads in my area. "there's no replacement for displacement" lol that has to be the funniest thing i've ever heard, but like 88Hatchy stated about the hp per liter, do the math, our little 4cylinders actually make more power with an engine that is 1/3 the size of a SBC

 

i agree with most of what u said except for the n/a being faster and im a import fanatic but there aint replacement for cubic inches n thats why honda engines are getting bigger

 

they are getting bigger because the cars are getting bigger because of safety regulations and stuff in that order. plus cars are getting to be more luxorious which also means added weight

there's an article about the 2010 TSX in this months edition of Honda Tuning which explains the need for bigger engines.

more weight=more power needed to pull it around

 

i just want a fun car, for the track i have an 87 rx7 with a 350 sbc in it. i want a fast car to haul people in. i have a nissan pickup (2 seater) and the rx7 (2 seater) and the honda (5 seater) so i just want to make it fast enough to be impressive for a honda car. i'll probly just rebuild it, through a header on it and call it good. thanks for the info guys, this site looks like it has a bunch of really knowledgeable people.

 

like i said headers, full cat back exhaust2-1/4 - 2-1/2 inch is good enough, intake system. i would even if it was me (second stage) a intake mani some level 1 cams with gears adv the timing with some 91 oct or better and u will see the difference

u could even take it to the dyno to get some extra power

 

well i'm sure i'll see the difference between my d16 and a b17. is it true about the 8k redline on the b17?

 

thats the funniest thing Ive heard...who cares about hp/liter? it doesnt matter, its just a number so you can sleep better at night. Seriously, what practical thing can you use that number for?

The bottom line is there is no replacement for displacement. Yeah we can jump them off a line (because of the power to weight) and keep them behind us if we have enough *** (FI), but the bottom line is they will catch us if giving enough room. Fortunately for us its only a quarter mile.

To the OP, bolt-ons dont require a retune, but honestly they dont much if anything at all. If you put cams in it will require a tune. Which brings in another problem. Hondas arent adjustable from the factory. The parts to make it tunable can range from free to several thousand dollars. Think about it this way, you put a cam in your 350, whats the first thing you do after breakin it in...start adjusting the carb.....

The cheapest way to pep it up is nitrous. I ran a 55 shot on a crappy zex kit for years without problems on a b18b.

 

The engine does have a 8000 rpm redline. Thats hardly anything for a VTEC B series, many member of this forum rev to 9000+ rpm.

As for "No replacement for displacement". This is very true. But even with the largest Honda four cylinder (K24), the name of the game is extracting as much power as possible from a relatively small engine. You also don't need FI to stay ahead of "them", a solid B20VTEC will do the job just fine.

I don't own a B17 or a B20VTEC for that matter. If I did own a B17, here is what i would do:

Oversize (81.5mm) B13/PR3 pistons
Type R cams and valvetrain
Edelbrock (I know this name is familiar to you ) Performer X Intake manifold
Inexpensive Cold Air Intake
Toda replica header
After all this, get it tuned

This is a simple, inexpensive build that will be very reliable if assembled correctly. To make sure you know exactly what to do, purchase a Helms Factory Repair Manual.

 

hmmmm, i got a friend that has one of these with a 383 sbc in it. i think its just a track car now but i remember when he had just a 355 sbc in it and it was street drivin. the car was insane

 

yeah they are. i can't wait to get it running. but anyway, if you can't retune the stock ecu, then i'll most likely rebuild it and throw it in. or turn around and sell it and upgrade my rx7 XD thanks again guys.

 

obd 1 ecu's can be retuned, you just have to find someone close to you that does it.

these guys are just saying that with minor bolt on modifications that it doesn't really need to be done